Penalty for Non Activation of Non Disappearing Target

[ap38]

Had a partially exposed target (upper A & B visible), the rest covered by a no shoot. Stepping on a foot activator moved the no shoot out of the way, fully exposing the target.

No requirement in the Written Stage Briefing to activate the moving no shoot nor to activate the foot activator.

The shoot target was stationary.

Is there a requirement to use the activator under these circumstances?

I could not find it in the rule book, as the shoot target did not move, and there was no activator to shoot to cause it to move.

Thanks,

Allen

[AWLAZS]

Allen

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

My take is that you didn't need to step on it first but you needed to trip it during the course of fire.

Edited July 21, 2008 by AWLAZS

[Hoofy]

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available

hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

If they would have put that one statement in the WSB,

All penalties would have applied, as is, no penalty.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Hoofy

[AWLAZS]

He was given penalties for not activating the foot pad.

[AWLAZS]

"The shoot target was stationary."

They all are until they are activated.

[lcs]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. (A no shoot is a scoring target, not that you want to shoot at it )

If the WSB (which I believe you mentioned) did not specify you have to activate the mechanism first, you could shoot the exposed A/B target anytime you wanted. Rule 9.9.3 would come into play if you did not activate the mechanism at some point. One procedural for failure to activate. JMHO.

[ap38]

I respectfully disagree.

The target is exposed, does not move, and there is no requirement to activate it in the WSB. Only the no shoot moves. If the shoot target moved, it would be a penalty. All the activator did was expose more of the shoot target, not make it available.

Thanks!

[AWLAZS]

Allen I did not think of it that way interesting.

[ap38]

Randy,

Had a similar situation before, but the swinger did move (was exposed prior to activation & was available before activation. You could shoot the swinger then the popper activator without penalty because it was not required to be activated first in the WSB. In this case you would have to hit the activator as it was a scoring target.

If the shoot target in this case was disappearing, and not exposed before the activator was tripped, then clearly a penalty.

In this case the shoot target never moves and is not a moving target. If it moved because of the activator, then also a penalty.

Mi dos centavos.

[AWLAZS]

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Because the noshoot moved and the target did not skip standing on the pad. No penality. If the target moved and the noshoot did not you get the penality. Interesting I wonder what John would say.

[ap38]

That's about it.

I see the point about a no shoot being a scoring target, but you wouldn't normally engage it on purpose.

John, please chime in. Seems in the gray area.

[Johann the Horrible]

If the competitor did engage the target at some stage(and not in contravention of the WSB) IMHO there can not be a penalty. Penalty for what? The competitor could engage all the targets and after he finished walk over to the activator and step in it 5 minutes later. Remember that the time stops at the last shot.

[lcs]

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4).

Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits

I presume this was a level one match as most to the II/III matches I have worked I have not seen a target set up in this manner.

The shoot target was appearing by virtue of the "no shoot" moving target being activited or not activated. (Yes, part of the shoot target was visable prior to activation of the mechanism).

So you can shoot it anytime because the WSB did not prohibit it, but you did not activite the mechanism--one procedural.

Edited July 21, 2008 by FullRace

[ap38]

Great discussion.

Thanks to all.

Allen

[Gary Stevens]

If I understand all of this correctly, the activation of the No-Shoot was to provide an easier shot at the stationary target. If that is correct, then it is an option and not a requirement, IMO.

If you want the easier shot, activate the swinging No-Shoot. If you don't want to take the option, then shoot the harder shot on the stationary target.

No penalty involved for non-activation.

Gary

[lcs]

If I understand all of this correctly, the activation of the No-Shoot was to provide an easier shot at the stationary target. If that is correct, then it is an option and not a requirement, IMO.

If you want the easier shot, activate the swinging No-Shoot. If you don't want to take the option, then shoot the harder shot on the stationary target.

No penalty involved for non-activation.

Gary

Gary,

Why does not 2.1.8.5 etc.. not apply?

[AWLAZS]

If I understand all of this correctly, the activation of the No-Shoot was to provide an easier shot at the stationary target. If that is correct, then it is an option and not a requirement, IMO.

If you want the easier shot, activate the swinging No-Shoot. If you don't want to take the option, then shoot the harder shot on the stationary target.

No penalty involved for non-activation.

Gary

Gary,

Why does not 2.1.8.5 etc.. not apply?

This target was set so you could see it. They did not want to make it a non penality miss. It was a rainy day and the droopy head made it easier to shoot it from the side. I don't think it helped the shooter out to shoot it that way.

[George Jones]

In an effort to bring some clarity to the discussion.

The shoot target was visible and (as reported) provided sufficient visibility to be a legal target (see bottom of App B3).

Therefore, it was not an appearing target. Neither was it a moving target.

In a case such as this one, no penalty can be applied to not stepping on the foot pad.

Unless this was a Level I match and the WSB specifically required the foot pad be activated prior to engaging the target - no penalty.

[kamakiri]

I've contacted NROI for an official ruling on this question. (The issue came up at a match I ran this past weekend.)

There are multiple issues that make this a tricky question.

One is the unique nature of the "Max Trap." The shoot target doesn't actually move. The no-shoot moves, however, and since penalty targets count as targets just the same as scoring targets, failure to activate the prop still counts as failure to activated a moving target.

The second is that the Max trap is typically set up (as it was at this match) to show the upper "A" zone at all times (before and after activation), so it's a non-disappearing target. It's seldom actually an advantage not to activate it (I don't think it was in this case, either); the head shot is just there to make the target non-disappearing and to allow a make-up shot for anyone who mis-times the activator. But all the rules in the rule book regarding shooting activators before they're activated (2.1.8.5, 9.9.3, 9.9.4) were pretty clearly written to address appearing targets that aren't supposed to be visible before they're activated (e.g. a swinger that's partly visible before it starts to move). There's nothing in there one way or the other per se about revealed targets like in the Max trap.

So, maybe it all comes down to the question of whether a shooter is required to activate all activators on a stage, or not. Stage briefings seldom say "YOU MUST activate x, y, and z"; they usually simply indicate what activates what (e.g. "USP 1 activates swinger 3, which remains visible" and so forth). My understanding was that the requirement to activate all activators is implied by their very existence, as per rule 9.9.3. But, maybe that's not the case for certain props like the Max trap.

I'm looking forward to hearing what Amidon has to say on the subject, and I'll be sure to post it here, if he doesn't weigh in on this forum himself.

Elye A.

[DogmaDog]

Sounds like the right way to shoot this one was to shoot all the targets, and after the last shot, walk over and trip the activator...thus the time taken to do so doesn't count. The shooter could have taken all the time in the world to go trip the activator, after all the shots had been fired, and his score would be what he shot, without any penalties related to the activator.

It sounds like an interesting challenge--do I take the harder shot and skip the activator, or do I activate, and take the easier shot?

No penalty, unless stage briefing specifically required activation.

The stage is better if it doesn't specifically require activation.

DD

[George Jones]

I note you mention Max Trap which was not mentioned by the original poster. It does provide a clearer picture of the scenario but does not change my response.

The 9.9.x rules you mention apply to moving scoring targets. No-shoots are not scoring targets, they're penalty targets. Even 9.9.4 implies scoring targets by referring to "engagement" which is a term used for shooting at scoring targets.

Thet target was visible. It was a legal target since it showed the whole upper A zone. Nothing prevented the shooter from engaging it prior to (or after) the movement of the no-shoot. Nothing in the rules directly requires a contraption to be activated. The rules do provide for penalties for failure to activate disappearing targets, which is not the case here.

Note: the only Max Traps I've ever seen were behind a door. The shooter had no choice but to open the door (automatically tripping the Max Trap) unless he was willing to take all the Mikes on the targets behind the door.

Using a Max Trap in plain view, with a visible upper A zone, allows the shooter to make a choice without penalty.

1. Shoot the upper zone without activating the MT, or

2. Activate the MT and gain a bigger target area

P.S. In this particular scenario, activating the MT after finished shooting is a non-event.

[cking]

Since no Activation was specified no penalty. As long as you took one shot at it, no failure to engage, score the target as usually if each target required two hits, and you had none, you get two misses.