Legal Stage?

[TDean]

"Dark House"

Is this a suprise stage? Is it illegal to NOT allow competitors to see the COF including target locations before they shoot it?

Edited July 7, 2003 by jhgtyre

[Vince Pinto]

TDean,

No, it's not illegal, and it's what we used to call a "surprise" course of fire. Of course the surprise doesn't last very long, because people who've shot the stage start talking, although it's less of a problem when there are no National teams, like you'd have at a World Shoot.

This stage is covered by Rule 3.1.2.

[TDean]

I'll check the rule out, thanks Vince.

I don't like "suprise" stages. I prefer a more pure shooting challenge.

Not to mention your point about information about the stage leaking-out into the masses making the stage less difficult for the later squads.

I would hate to shoot that stage first. I hope it gets tossed!

TD

[Vince Pinto]

Hi TDean,

Surprise COFs can remain a surprise, if fixed options are stated in the written stage briefing, as was done successfully at World Shoot Xi in Brazil in 1996.

At the surprise stage, there were three rooms to the left and three rooms to the right. The stage had an overall fixed number of paper targets (let's say it was 10, because I forget!), and the stage required that there must be 5 targets on the left and 5 targets on the right.

To keep it fair, each room must have either 1 or 2 targets so, if you consider just the 3 rooms on the left side, the sequence could be 1-2-2, or 2-1-2, or 2-2-1 (and ditto for the right side).

Hence, every step you took revealed 3 or 4 targets, but it could be 1L-2R or 2L-1R or 2L-2R

Anyway, no matter how the range staff secretly mixed it up while you couldn't see them, you had 10 targets total, with 5 targets on each side but 3 or 4 targets each step of the way. If you do the math, there are quite a few combinations, none of which is easier than the other.

[TDean]

"..no matter how the range staff secretly mixed it up while you couldn't see them..."

Are you saying that the stage changed through out the match?

Man, this is just getting worse.

[Loves2Shoot]

Can and does, we shot a stage last weekend where you step on a box thatopens sliding doors to reveal 6 targets. The targets were numbered and you had to put the number of rounds on the target that the target had written on it, and you change the targets around after each shooter. It was quite fun actually

[TDean]

I have no doubt it happens, I just don't like the randomness of the whole idea.

If the COF is different for every shooter. I can see a fuy who loses a major match by 2 points having a big problem with a stage like that. One random order might be more natural to engage than another random order. It's just not equal.

I think everyone should be confronted with the SAME challenge. This way we can decide who handled it the fastest most accurate way.

The more I think about it, the more I want to get into Steel Challenge shooting.

Stand in this box...shoot these plates....may the best man win!

[Loves2Shoot]

How boring.

I would rather have all the stages be suprise than standing and shooting plates, I do that in practice. I want something that challenges my mind, as well as my shooting. I just love/hate those tricky memory stages those who can shoot under the pressure of not knowing what to expect are truly the greatest shooters in my book.

[ErikW]

See John Amidon's Front Sight column in the March/April 2003 issue, under the heading Are Mystery Stages Possible?

Re-reading it, it seems he didn't actually provide an answer to the question.

[Vince Pinto]

Actually, right up to and including the IPSC 13th Edition rulebook, we had "Published", "Surprise" and "Semi-Surprise" COFs, but we dropped the last two definitions with the 14th Edition, and replaced them with "Non-Published".

I hear what you're saying about the courses being different, and that is why a good NP course must have limitations. It would be very unfair to, say (in the Brazil example), have all 5 targets in 1 room on the left for Joe, but spread over 3 rooms for Fred.

However the way it was done in Brazil (if I recall correctly), each room had 2 targets each, and there was a hard cover board for each side. All the ROs had to do was place the board in front of one target each side, to reduce the visible targets from 6 each side to 5 each side.

Hence the competitors knew that one of the rooms each side only had 1 target. Nobody complained because the variance was enough to be fun, but not enough to be inequitable.

Having said all that, I've never seen a surprise course since at a major (Level IV or V), match.

[xcount]

I ran a stage once that was "semi-surprise". At the extreme up range area of the range the entire squad was given part of the course description. Basically, it said there were two "rooms" (actually a divided range) with 5 targets to be engaged in each (long time ago, we could do that back then). All were advised that further & final instructions would be given individually just prior to shooting.

A 16' wall obscured the view of the door and window openings into each room where the shooting would take place. Each shooter was taken to a point just past this wall and told to LAMR.

They were then directed to a start box behind the wall and told the start position was facing up range. Once they faced up range they could see stapled to the down range side of the wall a standard white No Shoot target and a brown target with a white head.

At this point each shooter got the final instruction - "Under rule 6.05 both of these targets are designated No Shoot targets. Are you ready? Standby...."

Each "room" was sprinkled with both types of No Shoot targets. The room with the door had one on a swinger activated by the door. Of course, this was a white-headed No Shoot.

I could tell the stage was OK when one of my friends shot it sort of like this... ba-bang, bang-"You son of a bitch", ba-bang.

And one of the most frequently heard phrases of the day was, "Screw you, you'll find out."

As a side benefit, since only those who had already shot the stage were allowed to tape targets we had no lack of tapers that day. The guys literally ran down to tape targets, see how many No Shoots got hit, and bust chops on the shooter.

[GvU]

I do remember a surprise stage (28) at the 95 european championship (28 stages, 4 days shooting + RO-match) in Sweden. That was supposed to be a (total) surprise stage, no recon. Of course that was BS. Especially with maybe upto 4 or 5 teams from a number of countries.

The stage was situated at (in and around) a (real) barn complete with a stair to the "no-where top floor".

The start was outdoors, you had to run to shoot 3 PP around a corner, then go to the entrance and shoot the remaining 9 targets. Indoors you could use a flashlight (after x squads of about 20), needless to say, but that had hardly any contribution, I guess batteries were expensive. As it turned out there were 3 sets of 2 targets moved around inside (where it was quite dark) and 3 more moved around outside, to be engaged the through draped windows.

This stages was the pride and joy of the MD and he insisted nothing was wrong with this stages.

Times ran from 17 seconds (must have had inside knowledge ) to over 2 minutes (must have been lost going to the attick )!

Eventually at the 3rd day the stage was pulled, because someone "published" the layout and made plenty of copy's for distribution. From then you could shoot the stage for fun only.

Of course it was a fun stage (and I did enjoy shooting it), but this kind of stage doesn't belong in a level 4 championship. It simply is not a fair stage to all competitors as some will have beter intel from team-members.

It was a wonderfull match though, with plenty of diversity and props, including a big pendulum vikingship with 4 targets and a couple of NS.

To bad about this one stage.....

John

[Garfield]

I generally like the idea of surprise stages.

Have not shot one yet though.

However, I agree with John and others that measures must be taken to avoid information leaking out. This will indeed be more difficult on a match that lasts longer than one day.

I heard stories of match organisers using a "closed" room at the end of the stage where every shooter was quarantined until every shooter had shot the stage.

The option that Vince described also sounds to be a working one.

[Vince Pinto]

The trick is to keep "exotic" (including "back-up") stages reasonably short, sweet and simple.

If it's a surprise course where you need to search for targets, or where there can be a big difference in the challenge due to endless configurations, then it becomes annoying and frustrating, rather than a fun variation.

At smaller matches, I might have 3 white, 3 blue and 3 green targets, and you need to pick one card off a table which is lying face down and the colour you pick (after the start signal), is the penalty target. Hence you only need to shoot 12 rounds, you only have 2 positions, and there's only one colour to remember as the penalty target, so most people have fun, because it's quite simple.

Compare that to, say, the card saying "Strong Hand Only" or "Weak Hand Only". The guys who pick the "WHO" card are disadvantaged, and that's not the way to go.

[j1b]

You have to consider what the "test" is meant to be with a surprise stage and then it becomes justifiable.

No matter how much one finds out about a "hidden" stage - they still don't KNOW - which makes it all that much more interesting.

In the Brazil example - despite the fact the the stage changed for each competitor, the challenge was still the same. If I recall - the biggest challenge was figuring out when to reload - because you had no idea at what point you were going to have expended certain qty's of rounds.

I hate surprise stages - but if you are mentally strong enough to cruise through you have a big advantage.

JB

[Duane Thomas]

Just shot it today. It wasn't a surprise stage. You were allowed to walk through the house, scope out the targets, plan your reload.

Then they turned out the lights.

[Vince Pinto]

jib,

In Brazil, I was shooting a Glock 21 with 13+1 rounds in Standard, so decided I would reload while moving after the first L/R rooms, which means after 6 or 8 rounds. As it turned out, I had four targets (8 rounds) for the first L/R rooms, so it worked out nicely, as I had 13+1 again for the remaining 12 rounds.

Even if the first L/R rooms only had three targets (6 rounds), I still had 13+1 rounds for what would've been the remaining 14 rounds. Luckily I didn't have to shoot dry, 'coz I hate when that happens !

Duane,

OK, the suspense is killing me. How many guys used flashlights?

[Nik Habicht]

Vince,

You couldn't see anything without a flashlight. They changed the batteries after every squad, rotated two lights through so that the on deck shooter could arrange the lanyard to his liking, and figure out how to grab a mag for a reload, announced that if the flashlight bulb blew it would b e range equipment failure. After LAMR, they shut the lights out, used a red flashlight to orient the shooter toward the 180 and then set the buzzer off in total darkness. 4 total targets on the left, 4 on the right. One each out in the open near the start, 2 on each side through a left and a right port, with some hardcover/no -shoot in the area, one left and one right in the open at the end of the house. Someone shot it in 7 seconds...... not me; I thought I was shooting IDPA, sliced the pie, etc. and took 17 seconds.... Only dropped on C...

[Vince Pinto]

Nik,

Sounds like a fun COF. I haven't shot a total darkness stage for years.

The time of 7 seconds sounds awesome, so I guess the muzzle flash helped light up the room for him/her.

[BDH]

My only comment on this stage is that I'm glad I didn't have to WORK it!!

[Steve Anderson]

I had to lamr in total darkness and got a loaded sight picture warning... interesting.

I'd like to know how many shot strong hand only and how many tried one of the various two handed possibilities.

I went strong hand, as I practice that, and don't practice any two-handed-flashlight-tomfoolery.

Anybody know how the supersquadders did it?

SA

(I now know that n310 produces very little if any flash... )

[BDH]

(I now know that n310 produces very little if any flash... )

Bet you wish you were shooting your Open gun...... LIGHTS ON!!!!

[Steve Anderson]

I wished for my open gun until the last day of the match.

SA

[muser]

After the the LAMR the lights go out and it is total darkness. How do you know if someone is creeping or possibly drawing too early to gain an advantage?

From a safety standpoint, these types of stages are a disaster waiting to happen. The RO can't see the finger in the trigger guard, the muzzle breaking the 90 degrees, a gun being dropped, the shooter tripping and possibly falling, malfunctions being cleared, etc. These things happen in broad daylight, they will certainly happen in complete darkness. The flashlight is not the savior in everyone of these situations.

I guess a stage sponsor demonstrating the utility of its product was more important than safety concerns.

[BDH]

After the the LAMR the lights go out and it is total darkness. How do you know if someone is creeping or possibly drawing too early to gain an advantage?

From a safety standpoint, these types of stages are a disaster waiting to happen. The RO can't see the finger in the trigger guard, the muzzle breaking the 90 degrees, a gun being dropped, the shooter tripping and possibly falling, malfunctions being cleared, etc. These things happen in broad daylight, they will certainly happen in complete darkness. The flashlight is not the savior in everyone of these situations.

I guess a stage sponsor demonstrating the utility of its product was more important than safety concerns.

Muser,

I did not shoot this stage (there wasn't enough time for staff to shoot the match), but I had several conversations regarding how it was running. First, they gave it to Jay Worden who is one of the most experienced members of the Nationals Staff. Second, I believe they gave the RO's an infrared light (or at least red shaded light), so they could have some visibility without ruining the effect of darkness for the shooter. Finally, they instructed the shooters to yell 'malfunction' if they had a jamb or problem, and they turned on the lights to allow them to clear it.

Like I said, I did not shoot it, but if my memory is correct, those were some of the things they did to keep this safe. Anyone who actually shot it.... feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.