Flexmoney Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 The Steel Challenge is scored on time only. They have a stage called "Speed Option". The idea is that they have and optional target...if hit, you get to subtract time from your score. Can we do something (legally) similar in USPSA? Any ideas on implementation? If we could do it...we would have to take into account the likely hit factor that most of the shooters would get on the stage...to make the target an attractive option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 No we can't do that. However, every target in USPSA/IPSC target is aready a "speed option" because of hit factor scoring. Can you save enough time by not engaging it, taking the Misses and Procedural and eating the lost Alphas? Can you save enough time by flinging fast hopers? Is it worth the time for two sure-thing Alphas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 It kind of makes me think of disappearing targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 I am with you guys...just looking to explore the options. Can we declare targets as optional? Say...put a bank of paper at a 'long" distance...then just give No-Penalty-Mikes if the shooter choose not to engage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I am with you guys...just looking to explore the options.Can we declare targets as optional? Say...put a bank of paper at a 'long" distance...then just give No-Penalty-Mikes if the shooter choose not to engage? The proper way that you can do this legally is to make them disappearing targets. At a match at Shooters Paradise, they had a stage you could "game" by not engaging all of the targets at the last position. This also avoided the risk of tagging the no-shoot swinging across your vision and having to wait for it to swing by. You had to engage about 4 targets through the port with a swinging no-shoot swinging across the port. The swinging no-shoot would eventually come to a stop, blocking the port, and effectively making all of the targets at the last port "disappearing targets". I pointed it out to the Match Director, and he didn't think it would make much difference and said he shot at the last port. Then again, he also places top five against the best in the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Mpolans, The problem with that scenario ---- the swinging no-shoot that blocks the port, effectively creating disappearing targets, is that because it swings, the targets have multiple appearances. Multiple appearances mean that miss penalties apply. Kyle, Put a bank of 2-3 targets far enough out there and design a real hoser of a high point field course, and I might throw hopers ------ Nah, I'm a lowly C-class shooter, shooting minor, who needs all the points he can get...... and accuracy is my strong suit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Mpolans,The problem with that scenario ---- the swinging no-shoot that blocks the port, effectively creating disappearing targets, is that because it swings, the targets have multiple appearances. Multiple appearances mean that miss penalties apply. Kyle, Put a bank of 2-3 targets far enough out there and design a real hoser of a high point field course, and I might throw hopers ------ Nah, I'm a lowly C-class shooter, shooting minor, who needs all the points he can get...... and accuracy is my strong suit! I thought if the targets disappear when the no shoot comes to a rest, then they're disappearing targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 the targets do disappear but the multilpe exposures cause them to be scored misses. A target moving along a track that is hidden when stopped or a drop-turner would be classified as disappearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ok how about this. Dont know what it's called but it's a target stand that hold six targets 2 sets of threes at diffrent angles. Could you have this array then a popper that would activate the targets to fall back and disappear. If you didnt hit the popper they would be penality targets. Is this legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 the targets do disappear but the multilpe exposures cause them to be scored misses. A target moving along a track that is hidden when stopped or a drop-turner would be classified as disappearing. Wow. If this is the case, I can think of some absolutely EVIL course designs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenelson Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I think it was in Florida last year I shot a stage with a pair of targets running along a string with hard cover half-way through the path. So you would shoot a popper then the moving target would appear, then disappear behind the hard cover, then reappear on the other side, then disappear for good at the other end. It was not a "disappearing target" because you had two opportunities to shoot at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 that's correct (9.9.1). If it posed multiple exposures, it incurs FTEs and misses even if it's totally gone after all comes to rest. The rule book does not consider stationary targets obstructed by other (e.g. N/S) targets disappearing unless they themselves move. So, in a COF where, for example, after 5 sec a N/S target closes a port with a stationary target behind it, and if you can't engage it from anywhere else, it will still incur FTEs and misses although it *really* is a disappearing target with no multiple exposures. Kinda weird... I think (only Vince can put us straight here)... Flex, this really belongs under "Rules"... --detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Flex, this really belongs under "Rules"... Yeah...maybe. I have thought about posting it there...or, moving it there. But, I am hoping for some "this is what we've done" type responses. I didn't really want to get too deep into a rule number debate. (might be a pipe-dream) Here is the deal... A local match (non-affiliated) ran an all-steel stage. They score on time only. If it was shot clean...they substracted a chunk of time from the score. Then there is the Steel Challenge's "Speed Option". Now...some of the shooters are coming to me and asking if we can do something like that in an USPSA match. I could (pretty easily) interpret rules that say we can't do it. Or, I could say that disappearing targets...or hit factor already take care of this. I guess what I am looking for is a way to write it up in the stage description/procedure that makes it legal. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Flex, I dunno what you expect here... Erik has nailed it, every IPSC target is optional, plus you can make targets disappear after only one exposure and avoid charging FTEs and M's. That is the complete option list. There is no language in the stage briefing that would make "T1 is an option target. If you fail to engage and hit it at least once, 2 sec is added to your time" legal. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Sometime ago a had designed a stage here that we have a popper that could be hited at 35 yards and foreword about 10 yards. You had two ways to choose, one (if you hit the popper at 35 yds) the popper open a door and you have a vety short way. The other way was a long way and in this case you clous hit that popper at 10 yds. So if you hit the poppers at 35, you could have a very better time and a good hit factor, if don´t, you would have to run fast a lot ... This is not the same that Flex want to do, but it is like ... Ramos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 I'm not expecting much. I am hoping that someone in the vast Enos Universe can come up with a more opened-mind interpretation of the rules than I can (I don't think it is legal either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Last week at Topton we ran a stage with a steel no-shoot @ 75 yds. You got an "A" hit for each hit, max 2. This was placed in an array of paper targets with hardcover that went from about 10 yds to 20 yds. Most people just shot it as part of the array and hoped for the best. Quite a few hit it at least once. Apparently the scoring program worked. Misses were not penalized except for the time you spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 interesting but nothing to do with IPSC: a steel no-shoot @ 75 yds. You got an "A" hit for each hit, everyone should have received a no shoot penalty -10 for every hit Even if you meant steel target, not steel no-shoot target Misses were not penalized except for the time you spent This is not according to IPSC rules. Misses must be penalized unless it's a disappearing target. Bottom line: You ran a nice cool stage (congrats!) but it was not an IPSC match. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GvU Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 In the IPSC rules valid from 1st of January 2003 the amount of appearances are no longer important. Disappearing means disappearing. On the other hand if you determine when to end an exposure (like a pop-up penalty target, activated by a PP to appear in from of a target), there would be a very strong argument for misses and not engaging a target. (Similar to leaving a position where you cannot return to for safety reasons or a door or window that closes after you leave the position.) I think you always have to put down the questions "what is the reason for the BONUS target" and of course "how gamy can the competitor go through the stage". If these targets are to difficult (like you winning to much time in skipping that target) the target will loose its purpose (read: why would you put it in the stage if nobody is going to shoot it). So having a second (more difficult) position from where to engage that "disappearing" target should be used. Then again, this is a mind game. Let the competitor sort it out, but don't complain if he's real smart. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 In the IPSC rules valid from 1st of January 2003 the amount of appearances are no longer important. Disappearing means disappearing. So no more no penalty mikes on drop turners that show multiple times? Can you show the rule for that one? I seemed to have missed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GvU Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 IPSC Rulebook, September 2002 (valid from 1st of January 2003) 9.9 Scoring of Moving Targets – Moving targets may be scoring and/or penalty targets and shall be scored in accordance with the following: 9.9.1 After completing the designed movement, moving targets must either present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest or disappear completely from view. 9.9.1.1 Moving targets which remain in view after completing the designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, shall always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties 9.9.1.2 Moving targets which totally disappear after completing the designed movement shall not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where the competitor fails to activate disappearing targets. (see 9.9.2.). 9.9.2 Moving targets shall always incur failure to shoot at penalties and miss penalties in the event that a competitor fails to activate the mechanism that controls the target movement. 9.9.3 Scoring Appearing and Disappearing Targets - Any bullet hole on a target that turns, appears or disappears shall score the highest zone hit. Just don't forget to activate! I believe the USPSA did not accept this rulebook and uses the preveous version and still has the multiple exposures in rule 9.9.1 (14th ed. 2001?). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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