Potential Damage to Combat Commander

[Gary Lee Summers]

I have a stock Colt Combat Commander in .45ACP.  I understand that the standard recoil spring is 18 pounds.  What harm can I sustain by firing +P loads as a steady diet?  If the potential for harm exists, what can I do to alleviate the problem?

[EricW]

Is this the aluminum frame model?

There's certainly the *potential* to crack a frame or a slide, but I seriously doubt that +P ammo is going to be the deciding factor that breaks anything.  If your gun breaks, it was probably already prone to failure and would have gone sooner or later anyway.  If we're talking about an alum. frame, one just can't expect an infinite service life out of aluminum.  It's just not the nature of the material.  Enough stress and it will crack.  It's just the way it is.  

You're already running close to the most spring you probably could,  so I wouldn't worry about and just shoot.  If something happens, it won't be catastrophic.  Just get a new slide or frame fitted, forget about it and go shooting.  If you're super concerned, you might try running a shock buff, but beware of feeding issues.  I believe there's some threads about shock buffs and springs in the FAQ's now.  

E

[2alpha]

The Combat Commander has a steel frame and is generably as durable as the Govt model. A 20 lb spring wouldn't be a bad idea at any rate check the spring and replace when it gets an inch or so shorter than stock. Shock buffs as a rule don't work well in Commanders due to the already shortned slide stroke.

Most people use +p rounds sparingly and practice with standard or reduced power reloads. The continued use of hotter than standard loads could shorten the life of your pistol, cracks in the frame dust cover are fairly common but you can still use the pistol.  Slide cracks and frame slide rail cracks will take it out of service.

[Duane Thomas]

I wouldn't fire +P .45 ammo in any 1911, not a Combat Commander, not a Government Model. Foot-pounds of energy generated by .45 +P are equivalent to full-power 10mm Auto, i.e. about the same as the .41 Magnum. This will beat the living hell out of your gun in short order. In additional to a severely shortened life expectancy for your gun, and the possible reliability problems that come from firing a cartridge generating a recoil impulse WAY outside what the gun was designed to work with, you lose the .45 ACP's greatest attribute, the ability to fire a big, heavy bullet at low velocities with controllable recoil.

[EricW]

DT -

Aside from bullet weight and obvious momentum issues, how is 45 +P so different than a diet of 175+PF 38 Supers?  Folks did that for a lot of years.

Gary,

Is your Commander a carry gun, or a play gun?  IMVHO, if it's for carry, you should probably stick with the hot loads and just deal with the life expectancy issue when it happens.  Shooting foofer loads trying to keep your gun from breaking will do very little for your recoil management, which will be pretty important with the +P's.  Worst case, you might be out about $300-400 after the gunsmith's paid if you break something.  

I used to shoot all +P's too, BTW.  I broke my gun in the process, but because it was defective, not because of the +P's.  It's just the way the big ball bounces some days and you gotta deal with it.

[Flexmoney]

What is the advantage of +p 45 ammo?

[Steve Anderson]

Well, they beat the living hell out of bowling pins... I know that.

We used to have a guy come to shoot pins with the HK socom and load +p 45s. He would get two pins for every shot on the table, and then switch to regular .45 for the pins on wooden rails. (no need to clear a table, they just fall off a wooden rail)

It was cool.

He had a flashlight and flash suppressor on there to hold the muzzle down.

Outside of pins, 45+p seems like overkill.

SA

[2alpha]

Gary, I agree with everything said about the lack of need for the +p in the 45 but your original question is what you could do about the potential harm.  One thing that would help would to have a bull barrel fit by a good gunsmith and make sure he got maximum lug depth and the flats as long as possible.  This will keep it locked up a little longer and make it a little softer shooting. A comp would work also but more expensive and undesirable for a carry gun.  On the other side of this I've known some older 45 shooters who were not competition shooters who loaded and shot a lot of really hot loads through their 45's without problems. They didn't believe in " sissy " loads. LOL

[Duane Thomas]

"Aside from bullet weight and obvious momentum issues, how is 45 +P so different than a diet of 175+PF 38 Supers?  Folks did that for a lot of years."

Sure, in compensated autos. The compensator pushes down on the front of the barrel at the start of the recoil cycle, delaying its unlocking until much of the recoil impulse has dissipated - this translates to much lower slide velocity and is why compguns, all else being equal, run lighter recoil springs than their noncomped counterparts. On a noncomped full-power .38 Super/9x23/etc. by contrast, slide velocity is so high the hammer hook/sear engagement swiftly begins to pound itself. I once had a 5" 9x23 that, in 2,400 rounds, went from a 2-3/4 pound trigger pull to 1-1/2 pounds. Now, starting out with a 1-1/2 pound trigger pull that stays there is one thing. Having a trigger pull that drops 1-1/4 pounds, down to 1-1/2 pounds, inside a few thousand rounds is quite another. I was starting to worry this thing was going to go full auto on me.

Just MHO, but I think full-power .38 Super/9x23/etc. is right at the limit of what an uncomped 1911 can stand up to over the long term. And full-power 10mm Auto/.45 +P is way over the line. A 185-gr. JHP moving at 1050 fps - typical .45 +P ballistics - is a 194 power factor.

"IMVHO, if it's for carry, you should probably stick with the hot loads and just deal with the life expectancy issue when it happens.  Shooting foofer loads trying to keep your gun from breaking will do very little for your recoil management, which will be pretty important with the +P's."

I've always figured there were two components to "recoil management": (a) technique, ( the amount of recoil you have to deal with. The big bore Magnums score a big minus in category (. You can have excellent category (a) "recoil management" and still have crappy shot-to-shot speed with heavy enough recoil.

True, there may be people out there who can fire a .45 +P better than most people can fire a standard pressure .45, and they'll do well. Right up until they run up against someone firing standard pressure .45 who knows what they're doing - at which point they get their ass kicked. And from a self-defense standpoint, though they may be able to shoot .45 +Ps better than I can shoot standard pressure .45, they'll never be able to shoot .45 +P better than THEY could shoot standard pressure .45.

"I used to shoot all +P's too, BTW.  I broke my gun in the process, but because it was defective, not because of the +P's.  It's just the way the big ball bounces some days and you gotta deal with it."

Or you could just fire standard pressure ammo and not have to deal with it.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 7:58 pm on Jan. 6, 2003)

[EricW]

DT -

I'm with you on what you're saying about +P ammo, but Gary sounds like he is going to run with it regardless.  And I still do on occasion.  Lacking a 44 mag, when my buddies and I go running around the woods, we stoke our 45's up with hottest stuff we can get our paws on.  Optimal?  No.  But better than nothin'.  Some days you just have to make the best out of what you've got.  

While I have mixed emotions about using the super hot loads like CorBon (primarily because of the expense), they have given folks the option of extending the boundaries of their current handguns.  

Gary might be in the same boat as me.  Who knows....

For the record, my and damn near everyone else's S&W 4506 cracked whether they were running 45ACP +P or not.  S&W came out with the 4506-1 because of it.  My only point was that guns break occasionally.  It's just a fact of life.

[Duane Thomas]

Reminds me of an article I read - I think it was by Mas Ayoob (or was it Jan Libourel?) - on the .45 Super cartridge in a 4506. In the course of 200 rounds, the thumb safety broke, one of the inserts in the night sights winked out, and, under such heavy recoil, the slide stop frequently popped up into the slide stop notch with rounds still in the magazine. The writer's final assessment: "I like it! This gun/cartdige combination definitely has a place in my shooting battery." My assessment: "Better you than me, guy."

[EricW]

Come on Duane, put an extra grain or three in those big, empty cases the next time you're loading.  Live a little.  

[tightloop]

It just depends on how many of those +P rounds he is going to shoot.  I carry them in my combat Commander for defense, but shoot maybe 25 a year.  

20 lb spring and a shock buff are standard with my set up.  It will break if you shoot lots of that stuff.  Like I tell my students, when you go to the range, shoot the cheap stuff, when you carry for real; carry the baddest stuff sold over the counter.

[2alpha]

If you practice with the cheap stuff and your gun chokes how do you know if it's the gun or ammo?  How do you know your gun will be reliable with the baddest stuff?

The beauty of the 45 is that the standard 230 hollowpoint is about as good as it gets for downrange performance in a easy to shoot package.  Good quality 230 ball will duplicate the recoil and feel for practice and then shoot all the hollowpoints you can afford to be sure your pistol is dependable with that load.  Gun will last as long as its going to and everybody's happy.

I think a lot of folks try to make up for lack of confidence in their marksmanship by buying the latest baddest ammo.

[Loves2Shoot]

If you need more punch in a .45 that standard 230 grn, I think you should try the .50 desert eagle, it will hold up to the extra power factor, and it will punch big holes too.

[EricW]

---

Quote: from 2alpha on 3:48 pm on Jan. 9, 2003

If you practice with the cheap stuff and your gun chokes how do you know if it's the gun or ammo?  How do you know your gun will be reliable with the baddest stuff?

---

...which is exactly why I stopped using the stuff (99.5% of the time).  At upwards of a buck a shot, there's just no way to economically test your gun, rotate your ammo, or remain proficient given the extra recoil.  (Aside from loading your own mega pressure rounds - not recommended.)

[shaughn leayme]

I regularly rotate my carry ammunition (200 +P GDHP) on a quarterly basis and had a custom reloader make me a practice round (200 +P FMJ) and I shoot at least 200 rounds a month, sometimes more and a fair bit of standard power ammunition on top of it.

Have I broke anything? Nope, in the 2 yrs I have had this pistol (5" 1911) all I've done is replace springs and shock buffs when needed. Put a new barrel in(Schuemann) and had the pistol gone over from stem to stern, no battering or other signs of frame stress.

I look at the cost issue, how much is my life worth? or that of a loved one? Cost ranks down towards the bottom when compared against that.

I don't know about others, but I don't find the recoil of this round uncomfortable or hard to control.

For comparison purposes :

(Pro load)

230 GDHP        840 fps  ME 360 ft lbs

230 GDHP +P   920 fps, ME 432 ft lbs

200 GDHP +P 1030 fps, ME 471 ft lbs

But, like anything, it's your decision. I just happen to like the additional edge in performance provided by +P ammunition.

In an aluminum frame I wouldn't subject it to a heavy diet of this ammunition and if I was going to, I would acquire another for carry and have one for practice.

Hmmm...A good reason to buy another pistol

[tightloop]

by cheap stuff I mean regular ball ammo.  ever priced 200 rounds of Magsafe?  You should shoot enough of the bad stuff to be 100 percent certain it works in your gun, but it is hard to justify practicing with ammo which costs 2 bucks per round.

These recommendations are predicated on the assumption that your pistol will not choke on ball ammo.  My own carry gun will feed empty cases off the mag...but there is no telling what some people carry or how it might be set up.

[Duane Thomas]

"I think you should try the .50 desert eagle, it will hold up to the extra power factor, and it will punch big holes too."

The owner of a gun shop characterized the Desert Eagle's performance thus: "You fire it for 200 rounds and it stops working. You clean it and fire it for 200 rounds and it stops working. You just go along like that for awhile. Then it breaks."

[Patrick Sweeney]

I wouldn't worry too much about +P ammo in a steel commander.  I'd worry aobut the shooter, but not the gun.  Pin shooters have been putting tons of +P ammo downrange for decades with no problems.  As for the actual pressure, as I recall, the SAAMI specs are something like this:

.45 ACP   17,000

.45+P       21,000

10mm       34,000

So a +P diet is a long way from a gun-killing 10mm load.

If you're worried, look up the local cabal of pin shooters and find out what they do to keep the guns running.  Me, I just use full power spings, a buffer and makes sure the gun started out with proper lug engagement.

The last DE I shot was a customer that ejected empties into the shooters face.  It was the only gun I've ever fired while wearing a face mask.  Needed it, too.

[Duane Thomas]

I remember the first time I ever fired a Desert Eagle, one of the .44s. Every single casing came straight back and hit me right smack in the center of the forehead. I had little dents in my forehead afterwards. (This was before I started wearing a baseball cap as a matter of course, for the protection, when firing a handgun.) Those are some big, heavy casings, too and they were coming out with some serious velocity. I'm rather proud I actually managed to shoot a nice group under those conditions. Thank God the casings were hitting me base first. Otherwise I would've had a bunch of little smiley faces in my forehead by the time I was through.

The .50 AE Desert Eagle is the only gun I've ever fired that ejected casings straight down - cutting me with ever shot. Now it didn't cut me badly, just a thin line of blood with every shot, but still.... It was like, BOOM! zyiiiiip, I look at the back of my shooting hand. "Whoa." BOOM! zyiiiiip, "Whoa." And so forth.