G35 Firing Out of Battery

[Flexmoney]

OK...that is fun and all...let's not drift away from the question. - Admin.

I asked once.

I deleted the "Glock is perfection and all of the this vs. that stuff".

This ain't Glock Talk.

Stay on topic!

Forum Administrator

[Lee King]

I've been helping this shooter as well. I wasn't there for the 2nd kb. But I did get to see the brass. I need to get a picture of it and post it, but I didn't have my camera with me. I'll try this weekend. The brass has a ring around it that follows the contour of support by the barrel. It's not "even" all the way around. It is close to the base of the case on 1 side and farther away on the opposite. The farther from the base, the more pronounced the ring. So on 1 side the ring is almost non-existent, on the other, it's much more obvious The hole in the side of the brass is actually square and is on the side with the "most ring". You can take the barrel and the brass and twist the brass around until the ring lines up with the chamber support areas. The hole is right above and to the side of the ramp (i.e. the hole is 1/2 over the ramp and 1/2 to the side). When you look at the case and barrel from the side, it clearly sticks up about 1/8". However, this is because of the ring. I don't know whether or not the case would have fit all the way prior to firing. But the location of the hole, at least to me, seems right over the unsupported portion of the barrel (even if slightly off).

My theories are a. the case was fully seated and shifted back forming the ring during firing and kb b. the case was oversize and wouldn't seat all the way (I know the ammo in the 1st kb was case guaged, but as this was a different source I'm not sure about the 2nd) or c) it fired out of battery resulting in the ring about 1/8" out of full chamber.

I'll try to get pictures.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Lee King

[bountyhunter]

I would have that LDA checked out. Because there is something wrong. I have two M&Ps with competition trigger jobs and they absolutely will not fire out of battery. Not to mention none of my other pistols Paras, STIs, Colts, or Brownings will. That is a definite safety issue.

The LDA trigger mechanism has no inherent safety specifically aimed at stopping OB fires. I never fired live ammo that way, but I did a pen launch with the slide held slightly back.

[coltgov]

If he is using someone elses reloads it's better to case gauge directly to the barrel you

will be firing in. Cull the ones that don't drop out on their own and you have to poke it out.

The reason is if you just use the case guage, some may not go all the way into battery due to different bullet profiles.

[Coolduckboy]

mine fired out of battery once... Because i am a moron and didn't case guage my ammo.

[donojack]

On my stock G22 the slide cams the disconnect lobe on the connector before the barrel hood is released from the ejection port. It is about half way down but is still in battery when the trigger no longer functions. So in reverse that means the gun will not fire out of battery. As was also mentioned the FPS does not disengage until the gun is in battery. That is on a stock Glock of course.

That also means that an out of spec round, either case too long or COL too long, which may feed but keep the gun OOB will not fire since the slide will not travel far enough to connect the connector and disengage the FPS.

Glocks that fire before being fully in battery will also show an off-center primer strike. If the ruptured case doesn't show that then I suspect that it wasn't related to being partially OOB but was caused by a bad reload, either too hot, weak casing, etc.

Edited June 6, 2008 by donojack

[kframe_mike]

On my stock G22 the slide cams the disconnect lobe on the connector before the barrel hood is released from the ejection port. It is about half way down but is still in battery when the trigger no longer functions. So in reverse that means the gun will not fire out of battery. As was also mentioned the FPS does not disengage until the gun is in battery. That is on a stock Glock of course.

That also means that an out of spec round, either case too long or COL too long, which may feed but keep the gun OOB will not fire since the slide will not travel far enough to connect the connector and disengage the FPS.

Glocks that fire before being fully in battery will also show an off-center primer strike. If the ruptured case doesn't show that then I suspect that it wasn't related to being partially OOB but was caused by a bad reload, either too hot, weak casing, etc.

Now I'm no Glock expert,but I was looking at my G22 and seeing about the same thing.It looks to me that the FP safety doesn't do anything to prevent an OOB firing though.That ear on the trigger bar can still depress the FP safety for a loooong ways OOB. I think its mostly the connector timing that prevents it.Mine won't fire OOB with the stock or Scherer connector installed,but you can bet it will something I'll keep an eye on.I'm thinking that maybe theres some connectors(aftermarket AND factory) that are a little out of spec,and when they wear a little,they'll fire OOB.Just a theory and I'm probably wrong.-Mike

[donojack]

The FPS has a diameter of a little less than a 1/4" and with the trigger pulled with the gun in battery the tip of the cam on the trigger bar is about dead center of the FPS. The slide has to go back at least a 1/4" to get fully OOB so I do think that the FPS is engaged when the gun is OOB. You're certainly right that things could get worn and out of spec, but my G22 is very well used with the original trigger bar and seems to be dead on. Amateur gunsmithing is another matter altogether and I think that anyone should really understand all these relationships before messing with the gun, especially if it's used for defensive purposes.

[Jack Suber]

Update - According to the smith, the safety plunger was completely gunked up and not functioning properly - definitely the source of it firing out of battery. Further, there appears to have been some wear on the trigger bar. Components are being replaced, fitted, tuned, etc. Things should be good to go. Our friend was taught how to clean the everything but the top end of the pistol. So, after a few thousand rounds, I guess the pistol got a little tired of being dirty.

Full cleaning training will be provided to our friend in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for the feedback.

[AZGunut]

Jack,

Another think you may not be aware of, but all GLOCKS will fire when they are slightly out of battery (Probably 1/16" or so at least) Not a knock on your friends gun, but will happen every time if you pull it slightly out of battery.

[Graham Smith]

Update - According to the smith, the safety plunger was completely gunked up and not functioning properly - definitely the source of it firing out of battery.

Hhhmmm... Someone with a heavy hand on the oil can ? That'll gunk things up faster than anything I know.

[rhett45acp]

Bonjour,

I am glad our mutual shooter has their gun back. I hesitate on the following, but I just can't resist.

A dirty safety plunger and/or trigger bar has little to do with a Glock not going completely into battery. Granted, tuning the working tolerances of two components may prevent the gun from firing if not completely in battery, but why is the gun not in battery?

Worn trigger bar? We know where it came from??

However, I am betting this not the root cause of this guns issue. Can we say “Series 70”?

I was very surprised the gun was returned without the brand new springs installed. It would have taken 10 minutes to do. I am amazed. OR I am miss-informed, if so I apologize in advance.

I am willing to bet this shooter will have mysterious “duds” or something worse in the future.

Now that I have dug myself a grace, one more for the road. COL has NOTHING to do with different brands of 40 cal brass when loaded in a typical press.

This will be a great conversation at Summer Blast. I will bring Pen and Paper because I have a lot to learn.

Merci, A+

[SA Friday]

Jack, what the smith is saying makes a lot of sense. I bet there was/is wear on the firing pin in the groove for the FPS also (and the FP should probably be replaced too). This combined with the FPS not working correctly would allow the firing pin to fully fire if released while OOB. I have a lot of glocks, and find that I can get every one of them to fire OOB, but just barely (1/16 to 1/32"), not enough to light off an OOB round though. This will typically ring true regardless if unmodified or modified correctly. The FPS and the striker are huge players in stopping this from happening at a longer distance OOB. If they were FUBARed, that would explain it.

Also this hasn't been mentioned yet, but different recoil springs have different usage lifespans. The Wolfe recoil springs will not last a full year of shooting. I've found they are only good for about 10,000 rounds max, some find they are good for even less. The ISMI recoil springs seem to last a lot longer. So, if the recoil spring is over a year old and is a Wolfe, there could be a huge amount of tension lost in it.

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere in the thread (I may have missed it), but what kind of barrel is he using in the G35? There is a huge difference in the chambers of an OEM vs a Lone Wolf barrel or KKM. Lone Wolf's and KKM's are a lot tighter and some chamber gauges are actually looser than these two barrels.

A .004" variance in length makes no difference in OAL in a pistol as long as the OAL isn't snugged up to the rifling. 1.135 is what I run in my G24 and G35 both OEM and KKM barrels. The length should be fine. BTW, I get about the same variance in length when reloading mixed brass. It's just too insignificant to care about.

There are great directions on Glockmeister.com on how to completely disassemble and reassemble the slide and receiver parts of Glocks. They might help out your friend. I've found the glock 10x easier to disassemble/reassemble than the 1911/2011's.

Edited to add: There are photos of a M&P firing OOB on BE. This is a semi-auto handgun issue, not just a glock issue.

Edited June 18, 2008 by SA Friday

[Flexmoney]

...but why is the gun not in battery?

Good question.

[spankymac]

Bonjour,

I am glad our mutual shooter has their gun back. I hesitate on the following, but I just can't resist.

A dirty safety plunger and/or trigger bar has little to do with a Glock not going completely into battery. Granted, tuning the working tolerances of two components may prevent the gun from firing if not completely in battery, but why is the gun not in battery?

Worn trigger bar? We know where it came from??

However, I am betting this not the root cause of this guns issue. Can we say "Series 70"?

I was very surprised the gun was returned without the brand new springs installed. It would have taken 10 minutes to do. I am amazed. OR I am miss-informed, if so I apologize in advance.

I am willing to bet this shooter will have mysterious "duds" or something worse in the future.

Now that I have dug myself a grace, one more for the road. COL has NOTHING to do with different brands of 40 cal brass when loaded in a typical press.

This will be a great conversation at Summer Blast. I will bring Pen and Paper because I have a lot to learn.

Merci, A+

rhett45ACP,

I not sure where and how you were filled in on the resolution to the problem(s) with this much talked about firearm and the issues that it had?

Posted on behalf on the "smith"

There were serveral items that were believed to contribute to the problems with this gun firing out of battery:

1. Crud in the saftey plunger which alowed it to stay depressed at all times

2. A build up in the chamber 

3. Worn out springs

4. Ammo loaded to 1,154 to 1.160 and loaded hot to make PF with the added length (1911/2011 platform loads)

The gun was cleaned 100% and lubed as required. New springs were installed with a new trigger bar. The trigger bar was not damaged, but it was funky looking (not like any functioning trigger bars seen before). The gun was function fired with 50 rounds (4.6gr TG 1.128 OAL) under normal match (slow, fast, extremley fast) conditions with out problem.

The shooter was advised to modify their loads to a normal glock load and OAL to 1.125/1.135

If the gun is maintained and the loads set up correctly this gun should run perfect for a long while

THE GUN IS FIXED END OF STORY

Thanks,

Banks

[rhett45acp]

Banks,

Thank you for the accurate information. I received mine from the gun owner Monday night. I was the one that purchased the springs/parts to be sent to the “Smith”. I was told by the owner the original springs were fine and the new ones not installed by the smith. Hence in my post “OR I am miss-informed, if so I apologize in advance.”

“1. Crud in the safety plunger which allowed it to stay depressed at all times

2. A build up in the chamber

3. Worn out springs

4. Ammo loaded to 1,154 to 1.160 and loaded hot to make PF with the added length (1911/2011 platform loads)”

#1, Can we agree this has nothing to do with going fully into battery? I would like to know.

#2. 100% agreement

#3 100% agreement and was one of the things I was highly suspicious of in the beginning – read my post.

#4 100% agreement – Same as #3

Can you tell me if the gun had a tungsten guide rod installed? The owner does not know.

FYI – The origin of the trigger bar would surprise you.

Again, thank you for the update.

rhett45ACP

[SUPERDUPER]

We do know the trigger bar was installed by Dave Sevigny that is not new news. It looks like the gun owner should have sent this gun to rhett45acp he seems to know what it would have taken to fix it.....SD

[Jack Suber]

Banks,

Thank you for the accurate information. I received mine from the gun owner Monday night. I was the one that purchased the springs/parts to be sent to the “Smith”. I was told by the owner the original springs were fine and the new ones not installed by the smith. Hence in my post “OR I am miss-informed, if so I apologize in advance.”

“1. Crud in the safety plunger which allowed it to stay depressed at all times

2. A build up in the chamber

3. Worn out springs

4. Ammo loaded to 1,154 to 1.160 and loaded hot to make PF with the added length (1911/2011 platform loads)”

#1, Can we agree this has nothing to do with going fully into battery? I would like to know.

#2. 100% agreement

#3 100% agreement and was one of the things I was highly suspicious of in the beginning – read my post.

#4 100% agreement – Same as #3

Can you tell me if the gun had a tungsten guide rod installed? The owner does not know.

FYI – The origin of the trigger bar would surprise you.

Again, thank you for the update.

rhett45ACP

Rhett,

Read post 23. The source of the trigger group and guide rod are posted there. Wouldn't you consider those two individuals very qualified in making recommendations for mods and actually working on the gun?

"A dirty safety plunger and/or trigger bar has little to do with a Glock not going completely into battery."

Not quite. Yes, something contributed to it being out of battery. But when it is that far out of battery, it better not go bang! That is what the safety plunger is for.

"COL has NOTHING to do with different brands of 40 cal brass when loaded in a typical press."

Really? Would you consider a 1050 or 650 a typical press? Wonder why my loads with Speer and Winchester brass are always a couple thousandths shorter than R&P and Fed? I set my 1050 up with Winchester brass for an OAL of 1.195. R&P and Fed will come out at 1.198 - 1.201. Everytime. Nothing changed on the press. Same bullets. The fact is that 40 cases are slightly different brand to brand.

I am willing to bet this shooter will have mysterious “duds” or something worse in the future.

I doubt it. We have the shooter squared away and everything is running the way it should.

[Flexmoney]

It appears that this thread has run it's course.

Let me or another moderator know if there is any new information.

closed