SimonM Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Hello! This is my first time posting here. I've been reading posts for a while and think you have so much knowledge about the gameguns etc., that this is the place to ask around. I've been asking similar questions on another forum, but I'd still like to know what people here think. I've been shooting limited for a couple of years now and I've ended up using a STI Edge .40 after trying and owning several different makes and models. Even though I fully intend to carry on shooting limited (may even get an open blaster some day), I'm very interested in trying out the production class. At the moment I own two 9mm's; G26 and g19 and the latter is the one I'm going to use while competing in a match this summer. Though I like Glocks I'd like to get something that more closely resembles my STI atleast as far as the grip angle is concerned. The weight differences of a Glock and an Edge are rather big also. The two guns I've been thinking about are Beretta 92FS and SIG P226. The SIG could be had with a steelframe, but from what I remember it sits a little higher in the hand than the Beretta. Durability of the two guns is also a bit of a concern and I'd also like to know whether there's any difference in the trigger reset. That's one thing I like about a Glock is that it's quite easy to shoot quickly with that "safe action" trigger. Sorry about the long post, but please let me know what kind of recommendations you might have. Thanks in advance!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I've shot my G19 in production. I probably won't after I get my grimy paws on a Springfield XD Comp. Love my Glock, but Springfield's got a better mousetrap and I'm ready to jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 i'd like to try the para lda limited 9mm. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I got my hands on a Springfield XD Comp, and if I HAD to shoot production, that would be my choice hands down, unless I could get TJ's para Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonM Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 Thanks for the replies! How do you take the new class; are there mostly beginners shooting? Are the guys that shoot limited or open interested in it? I know that at least Jarrett has been shooting in production, but that may have to do with the fact that he is trying out how the LDA-models can do. As for me, I like the idea of competing with less expensive equipment for a change and that the guns are "more practical" i.e. the type people carry on duty. It's nice to have variety. (I must confess that I shot a revolver match with a borrowed S&W 686 two months ago and I almost ended up buying a revo of my own...) I'd still like to know what kind options would you offer me if I were to get a production pistol, other than my G19. Preferably the kind of pistol that wouldn't mess up my shooting with the STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Simon- Welcome to enosverse! I have only been posting a short time too (lurked for a while), and it is a fantasitc forum. For Production, it seems like Glocks rule the roost most of the time, but there may be some other good options like the Para 18.9 LDA and the Springfield XD. I shoot a Glock 34 in Production, but I am leaning towards a 1911/2011 grip style like the LDA / XD. It seems that the LDA trigger can get slicked up and light, but there is still some travel. It is also 40oz, and 125pf loads are probably really flat and soft. I have no idea about how good the XD trigger can be made or what good parts can be had. How about it XD fans? (slight thread hijack underway.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Wiz- What's to fix on the XD trigger? I can't find anything on the gun to "fix." Simon, There's the rub. Most of the folks shooting Production in local matches are newbies. It's fun for a while, but to challenge yourself, you'll probably need to shoot Lim-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Eric- Those sights! ....ick... I am a lowly 56% C class shooter, but I have been spoiled by nice sights and a nice glock trigger. I like shooting 1911/2011 grip angle guns, but I am hesitant to change because I kinda like my glock (its an equipment crutch). I have yet to order / read BE's book, and that will be next purchase. I do have a friend that wants my glock, so I have been toying with the idea of a different Prod gun. (Kinda like Simon) Simon- The club that I shoot at sometimes has very few Prod shooters, and I have entered L10 minor to challenge myself. (with mixed results ) At the larger events, where there would be lots of competition, I would shoot Production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Eric-Those sights! ....ick... I am a lowly 56% C class shooter, but I have been spoiled by nice sights and a nice glock trigger. Have you ever dry-fired an XD? Short of the custom, comp. only Glock triggers - the XD runs circles around any Glock I've ever tried. I'm well in the Glock camp - I've got three so far, but better is better. Glock sights are hardly a masterpiece. They're the first things I shitcan when setting up a gun. That's why there's the aftermarket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 It's my understanding that any sights made for a sig will fit the XD. SA And I'll suggest again that an Beretta tricked out by LTT ( langdontactical.com ) is a great production gun. You can get the DA down to 7 and the SA down to 2.5 easy, Federal primers required. The XD is very tempting, however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Eric- I have a Dawson FO on the front and a CGR Heinie on the rear of the G34. What I was saying was that I had not seen any sights for the XD yet except the Dawson FO front. I have only played with one XD and it was a longer pull than the modified glock. I had no idea that the XD could take Sig sights. I am XD illiterate and will shut-up now. What about the LDA? I have only dry-fired them at the toy shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 #5 in the country right now in Production is Tom Freeman. Tom is a member of the Airforce Shooting Team. He is not paid to hawk Glocks, Berretas, Paras, or anything else. He shoots a Steyr M9 in production w/ Heine Slant Pros modified to fit the Steyr. Think that gun can't win? Tell it to Tom. Think others are motivated to win w/ their brand? I do. Steyr does not have a team & does not pay Tom - he can shoot whatever he wants & no, the Air force does not issue Steyrs. Its simply a good gun capable of winning of you do your part. Steyr is back in business through RWS. There are parts & Service available through Diamond Trail Shooters Supply (641) 623-3098 -ask for Dennis. I shoot the M9, and Glock 17 in Production. To me, the downside to the Steyr is its the same size as a Glock 19 and a little extra length would be nice to have. When the targets are out at 50 yrds or so, there might be slight edge to a Glock 34, but any closer than that & the Steyr is lightning fast. Here is the best part: about $300 new from CDNN w/ one mag plus $24 for extra mags. Is this the best gun available? I can't make that claim. If you want shot to shot consistent trigger pull, I'd look at the Steyr M9 and the Glock 17/34. Otherwise the CZ 85 in 9mm and the Elite II Berreta seem to shoot well the few times I have tried them. The axis of bore on the Sig is too high for me. Never shot an XD or an LDA but I do not like .40 minor. Tell us what you decide. EDIT: oops - turns out he is #6 in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Yes the stock XD sights aren't the best. That's why I installed a Bo-mar and thinned the front sight down. It's a sweet set-up. I'll try to get a picture up soon. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Simon, I am trying the Beretta 92FS Vertec which has a grip angle close to a 1911. One of the first things to do is put in a lighter hammer spring (16#) and a steel guide rod (Wolff has both parts). Or a tungstenguide rod if you don't mind paying the 65 Euro. Do NOT use the LTT trigger as the speed bump is NOT production legal, however Beretta is selling a replacement trigger that has pre & over travel adjustment. One problem is finding a holster to fit because of the light rail on the front of the dust cover. Dillon does have one style. Another problem is the plastic grip panels but you can use clear spray lacquer and sand or the spray grit stuff that Brownells sells. I have even read rumors that Beretta is going to make the Vertec in all steel later this year. I am still battling the double action first shot (about 8.5 pounds) after that it is sweet because you can feel the trigger reset just like a Glock so you can get a shorter trigger release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 The Steyr M9 is very nice. Lack of marketing and distributorship killed that gun for LE. Where does one find this new Beretta replacement trigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 It has always seemed to me that a heavy (steel) first-shot-only DA 9 mm pistol like the Beretta or the S&W 39/59xx should be the winning ticket. At least you have to fight the long DA only once, and then you're back to your exquisitely tuned SA. That said, I chose a Para LDA in 9 because I already had all the equipment (incl mags), and because it offers very high-capacity magazines (19 or 20 rds) for international/IPSC Prod Div where there's no mag capacity limit. The trigger can be tuned phenomenally, but the long stroke never goes away... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonM Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 Great info, thanks! This is nice to get so many replies so quickly from people who know what they're talking about. I've been discussing about production guns with my fellow IPSC shooters here in our club, but since it's a new class around here people don't really have so much to tell. Actually, I think I'm the interested in the production more than anyone else in our club, even though I'm one of the more experienced members... I'll try how it goes with my G19 and then, depending how I feel about it, may consider getting something else. The only downside to getting a new gun around here, especially a production gun, is the fact that I may not get try out many different kinds before I make my decision. That's why it's good to hear what you guys have to say about different pistols. I have had a P220 .45 and two Beretta 92FS pistols, but that was a few years ago and I wasn't shooting IPSC at the time, so I don't really have a feeling how they'd do in competition. I shot them very rarely and therefore don't have much to say about them, except that those were well made, quality pieces. If someone still has experiences or ideas, please let me know. This is indeed a good place to get informations and opinions! I wish I'd posted here a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Hi, I'm a kind of newbie on this forum. Have been reading for a few months now, but haven't posted much. I shoot PD in the Netherlands. Over here it is also a division with not too many shooters, but as long as I am not no. 1 I don't consider myself underchallenged :-) I use a G17. I like PD beacuse it's basic. More focus on shooting skills than on shooting equipment and the amount of money one can (or wants to) spend on his/her equipment. I feel that a lot of shooters are still performing less than their guns are capable of, even with standard guns like my G17. What I mean is that in general, in my opinion, people would do better to focus on their shooting skills in stead of "toying around" with all kind of modifications. Of course this is a big generalization and I don't want to offend anyone with this statement. I'm not a bad shooter, but I have seen that my standard G17 is capable of far more than I can consistently do with it. On the other hand, if you WANT to experiment with modifications etcetera, that's fine, everyone is (of course) free to decide for him/her self. But maybe you don't NEED that. The biggest performance growth is (in my opinion) possible within the shooter self, not within the equipment. I use the standard sights on my G17. I don't think they're that bad. It's just a mindset: I want to perform with THIS standard gun to my maximum, and I still am nowhere near that maximum yet. And one more thing to end this long post: buy THE book ! I have bought & read it and I think it's great. I have read many books about shooting, but Brian's book is one like I've never read before. Best regards, Arvid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Been using my glock 19 in IPSC-Prod for quite sometime now with very good results. However, the norm back here seems to favor 17-rounders since majority of the COF's start with an unloaded gun. Been toying with the idea of getting a CZ75 since it costs less and could be fixed if something broke. Something I could not say the same for the glock back here. My advice, go play with what you have. You'll have a better picture of what you really need once you've joined the fray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I've always found it a little strange that some will prefer a mediocre trigger for every shot vs. a DA first shot and then a great SA trigger for everything else. The only time it's ever a factor for me is mini poppers at 15 yards or longer. There's something closer to shoot 99% of the time. I can't recall a stage where I was forced to shoot something first that bothered me with a DA first shot in production. It's also funny (funny interesting, not funny ha-ha) how many use the LDA when trigger reset is such a big issue. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonM Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 Steve, Just curious, what gun/guns do you use for production? I'm thinking more and more that I might get a Beretta 9mm and start using it for production. I've been considering the Stock model; it's readily available here in Europe. From what I've gathered you have a tough time getting your hands on one in USA. What would say about this kind of plan: - The grip angle is a bit like my STI (only curved, of course) and the Stock could also be used as cocked and locked type of pistol, so it wouldn't mess up my shooting in limited. This Beretta could be used for practicing limited, shooting production matches and I could even use it in steel matches. There are a couple of things that worry me. First, I'm not sure how much difference there is in the reset STI vs. Beretta and second, the grip, however a bit more similar than Glock vs. STI, is still a different grip. Now that I mentioned the steel shooting, I might as well ask your opinion on that too. This year I shot in a steel match for the first time with my Edge .40 loaded with the most feeble ammo it fed reliably. I did ok, but it would be easier to use a 9mm; it would cycle faster and so on. I've been thinking that Beretta for that or a STI in 9mm. If I were to get a STI 9mm; I'm leaning towards the Eagle model. Is that a sensible choise considering that I shoot an Edge in limited? Please bear with me and give some feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonM Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 I just noticed, that i must've had my letters mixed up... Sorry for the poor english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 I've always found it a little strange that some will prefer a mediocre trigger for every shot vs. a DA first shot and then a great SA trigger for everything else.SA Steve, With all that dang dry-firing you've got me doing and maybe 40k live rounds through the G34s now I just don't notice the trigger as mediocre. Whenever I break out the S&W 910 or the 1911s though I notice that I have really slow sight recovery and indexing ----- and I still don't notice the trigger. I guess if you practice with something long enough...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Nik, I wasn't thinking of the G-lock specifically, your point is well taken. Simon, I believe the "Stock" model Beretta 92 is single action only, therefore illegal in production. (Stock is the actual model name, it's similar to the "combat" model, and hard to find in the US) I use the Beretta Elite II. BTW, those stock models have a very nice reset, I believe it's adjustable. I have a Billennium which a fancy stock model. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 I use the standard sights on my G17. I don't think they're that bad. Actually, they are that bad. As you improve in skill - or even before - you'll want something nicer. The sight picture on the stock plastic Glock sights is extremely cramped, and the sights are lacking in durability. Fire your Glock much and it's just a matter of time before those soft plastic sights, front or rear, depart the gun at high speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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