People Who Don't Vaccinate Their Kids

[bountyhunter]

In Kali, the vaccinations for school kids used to be mandatory, but now there is a way for parents to refuse based on "beliefs". The news says the general rate of vaccination among the public school kids is 99%.

But, there is a private school in Contra Costa specially for people who don't want to vaccinate their kids. The vaccination rate their is only about 50%. It just had a pertussis (whooping cough) outbreak with 16 full blown cases in about 200 students so far, and it is spreading so fast they had to close the school. Apparrently there is an antibiotic that works against it and kids will not be allowed back until they either show proof of vaccination or complete treatment.

Kids with pertussis get relly sick, but there are no deaths so far.

I realize that some people think the vaccine "causes" autism and they like to argue about that. What nobody can argue about is what happens when you DON'T vaccinate kids: we go back to the good old days where lethal illnesses sweep through poulations of kids and cause misery and even death. We just got a preview of what the world will be like if we stop vaccinating kids.

[TimBoettcher]

I agree, vaccinations are one of the the leading causes of Autism. I happen to know a lot about this subject. Stick with the basic shots, but the others will not come near my kids!

[kevin c]

Vaccines generate a lot of heated argument. As a pediatrician, I'll just say this. The use of a vaccine is based on the benefit outweighing the risk. The ones in use today have far more upside than downside, but that is little comfort to those where there has been a bad outcome after taking the shots. There is equally little to comfort those whose decision is not to vaccinate, and whose children get a potentially devastating and avoidable illness. It's the parents choice, but I advise them that I recommend the vax because their child has a much better chance of living a long and healthy life getting them than not.

There is not much evidence that autism is caused by vaccinations. Nearly all the original authors of the paper proposing the link have withdrawn their support of the idea. I suggest any parent speak to their own child's physician about the pros and cons of vax rather than rely on possibly out of date information on line, no matter what the credentials of the person providing the info, and that includes yours truly.

Kevin C

[bountyhunter]

Vaccines generate a lot of heated argument. As a pediatrician, I'll just say this. The use of a vaccine is based on the benefit outweighing the risk.

Bullseye, and outbreaks like this sure bring the benefits of vaccines into focus.

The ones in use today have far more upside than downside, but that is little comfort to those where there has been a bad outcome after taking the shots.

The problem is, if you give anything to about ten million kids (even a glass of water) many thousands of them will have bad outcomes from unknown causes and people will automatically use that to prove that water is bad.

It's the parents choice, but I advise them that I recommend the vax because their child has a much better chance of living a long and healthy life getting them than not.

You're right, and I suspect that if you're a doctor, you know the "link" that "proves" causation of illnesses caused by the vaccines has never been proven or even established reliably. The results of not vaccinating is pretty clear....

The parents who don't vaccinate actually rely on the ones that do.... since if the unvaccinated percentage is low enough, epidemics can't be sustained. In places like this school where the unvaccinated percentage is about 50%, we get to see what it was like before vaccines. Lot's of sick kids, closed schools, and terrified people.

"About 20 percent of children with autism will regress between their first and second birthday," says Offit. "So statistically, it will have to happen where some children will get a vaccine. They will have been fine. They will get the vaccine, and they will not be fine anymore. And I think parents can reasonably ask the question, 'Is it the vaccine that did this?'"

The answer is no, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization, and the Institute of Medicine.

In reaching its conclusion, the Institute of Medicine pointed to five large studies finding no link between autism and the preservative thimerosal, which contains mercury, and 14 large studies finding no link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Childhood vaccines no longer contain thimerosal, though it remains in some flu shots.

Top federal health authorities Thursday reiterated that vaccines do not cause autism after government health officials acknowledged that a vaccine, by worsening an underlying genetic condition, may have triggered autismlike symptoms in one girl.

//there is as yet no evidence providing a reliable link between vaccination and the worsening of underlying mitochondrial diseases such as the one suffered by Hannah Poling.

"That said, there remains no epidemiological data that we are aware of that implicates vaccination in autism or in mitochondrial disorders."

Edited May 10, 2008 by bountyhunter

[robomanusa]

All my kids have gotten the vaccines required by schools, I do know that I myself never did get half the vaccines kids must go get today and I never got any bad illnesses growing up.....makes me wonder if half the shots required today aren't just water

[John Dunn]

When's the last time you saw a case of Diptheria? Polio? Tetanus? Small Pox? Measles? Mumps? etc.?

I think if people had the opportunity to see those diseases in their full glory like our Grandparents did, there'd be a lot less whining about getting vaccinated. If you are ever going to travel outside the US, don't count on everyone else being vaccinated to protect you.

[bountyhunter]

All my kids have gotten the vaccines required by schools, I do know that I myself never did get half the vaccines kids must go get today and I never got any bad illnesses growing up.....makes me wonder if half the shots required today aren't just water

It turns out as long as maybe 60 - 65% of the population are vaccinated, outbreaks can not become epidemics (they are just isolated cases which do not vector outward because the vaccinated people stop them). So lots of people can be unvaccinated and still not get sick, but there's a threshold where it changes.

[mdstihl]

I guess an analogy would be the seatbelt laws. They do save more lives than they cost, so overall getting "everyone" to wear their seatbelt saves lives. However, in any individual occurence the seat belt can, or could, cause bodily harm or death by being worn, while if it had not been worn the person would have been just fine. But, this is turning into a discussion, and we all know what's next.

[bountyhunter]

I guess an analogy would be the seatbelt laws. They do save more lives than they cost, so overall getting "everyone" to wear their seatbelt saves lives. However, in any individual occurence the seat belt can, or could, cause bodily harm or death by being worn, while if it had not been worn the person would have been just fine. But, this is turning into a discussion, and we all know what's next.

Actually, I would be in favor of allowing adults the right to refuse to wear seat belts if they choose.... as long as they sign away all right to demand free (public funded) medical care for the injuries that result from that decision. I think vaccines are different because in those cases, minor children are having decisions made for them which ultimately increases the probability they will suffer harm.....

And when they get sick, they will spread it to others. The fool who refuses the protection of a seatbelt will not spread his injuries to others... and his DNA line will also be self-limiting since Darwin's work is never done.

[FranDoc]

Seen polio with a lifelong neurologic deficit in the survivors? Viral hepatitis B that's progressed to liver cancer? A kid who's deaf due to H. influenzae meningitis? A bilateral leg amputation necessitated by meningococcus? Death due to pneumococcal pneumonia or viral influenza A? Congenital rubella syndrome (deaf, blind, profound developmental delay)?

I'm not trying to 'gross anybody out', but this is why we have vaccines.

Yes, only a percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated to provide adequate 'herd immunity'. Those who are unvaccinated are at risk for the disease(s) AND may carry disease to people who are incompletely vaccinated (eg: the hepatitis B series is 3 doses over 6 months) or who are immunocompromised -- pregnant, on high-dose steroids, on chemotherapy, infected with HIV, etc.

We walk a fine line when the exercise of a personal freedom puts another segment of the population at risk.

[Jim Norman]

We made the decision to follow our doctors recomendations

Some vacs are on schedule, others he has delayed based upon his feelings about the development stage of the child.

As for vacs vs no-vacs. I am in favor. I am old enough to know people that got polio and spent the rest of their lives in a chair with wheels. I had Measles and "German" Measles, and Chicken Pox and Mumps. None were pleasent and thankfully they did not have a lasting effect on me.

I remember my father talking about people not naming their babies until they were two years old since there was a good chance (Got to be a better way to say that) that they would not live. I think he refered to it as second summer.

My own grandfather didn't get 'the family name' since they figured he was too scrawny. He was born way before vacs were around (1874) He went on to outlive his siblings and most contemporaries.

You don't want to vaccinate your kids, keep them away from mine.

Jim

[TMFAKBFS]

Hmmmmm oke, chosing not to vaccinate your childeren sounds a bit ridiculous to me. Here in The Netherlands the vaccination is free. All baby's, 4 year olds, and 9 year olds get there vaccinations true a program. About 95 % of all the childeren in The Netherlands had there vaccinations. These are the basic ones for Polio, Diptheria, Small Pox, Measles etc. I really think that's a good thing that childeren are being vaccinated, and thats probably why there are so few Child desease cases here.

[Rob Boudrie]

I guess an analogy would be the seatbelt laws. They do save more lives than they cost, so overall getting "everyone" to wear their seatbelt saves lives. However, in any individual occurence the seat belt can, or could, cause bodily harm or death by being worn, while if it had not been worn the person would have been just fine. But, this is turning into a discussion, and we all know what's next. wink.gif

A key difference is that you can't freeload the benefit of seatbelt wearing if you never wear yours but everyone else does. I would not be nervous about being unvaccinated in a society where everyone else was required to be immunized, but if others are not required to be vaccinated I certainly would want to be. It's an interesting catch 22.

[bountyhunter]

We made the decision to follow our doctors recomendations

Some vacs are on schedule, others he has delayed based upon his feelings about the development stage of the child.

As for vacs vs no-vacs. I am in favor. I am old enough to know people that got polio and spent the rest of their lives in a chair with wheels. I had Measles and "German" Measles, and Chicken Pox and Mumps. None were pleasent and thankfully they did not have a lasting effect on me.

My big sister had polio as a child.... the kind that was about 99% fatal. She got lucky, only remainder effect is she has some permanent paralysis of the thrat muscles and her jaw growth was stopped at about age eight so they had to pull about half her teeth because hwere wasn't enough room.

My mom was a nurse back then (in the 40's) and helped treat her. Picture wards filled with small kids in large iron lung machines because that is the only way they could breathe for kids whose chest muscles were attacked by polio and they could not breathe.

That was a hell of a way to die.

Edited May 14, 2008 by bountyhunter