Becoming a Revolversmith

[HighVelocity]

After shooting wheelguns in competition and doing it on a very tiny budget, I've got a pretty good handle on the basics of tuning a S&W revolver. I've wrenched on J, K, L and N frames for myself and for a few close friends and have had good results.

I enjoy working on Smiths and wonder if doing it could actually be putting groceries on the table. How do I get started? :popcorn1:

Thanks in advance,

Gary

[Waltermitty]

You can definitely make a small fortune gunsmithing revolvers.

Step 1: Start with a *large* fortune.

Step 2: Begin a Gunsmithing business.

All done!

Edited April 22, 2008 by Waltermitty

[Toolguy]

You can definitely make a small fortune gunsmithing revolvers.

Step 1: Start with a *large* fortune.

Step 2: Begin a Gunsmithing business.

All done!

That is more truth than fiction!

[pskys2]

It's a labor of love and what price can you put on love !

[Pin Shooter]

Hi Gary,

If you figure out the secret ...let me know. I would rather be at home swearing at parts and drinking than sitting here.

Mark

[Waltermitty]

It's a labor of love and what price can you put on love !

I've seen the price list, what kind of love did you have in mind?

[bigsaxdog]

i've been dreaming about this, and the FFL thing is a problem. i dunno where you live, but here they want proof of business zoning, "suitable place of business" is their verbage. gotta have a place w/ business zoning, which means renting some kinda store front, shop, etc. which translates into mo' $$$$. i can't do it from my house, but i think you can in some municipalities, you just gotta find out. ain't done with the idea though.....

[HighVelocity]

Mark, is that how your make your gun run so fast? Get liqoured up while you work on it?

I'm not looking at the FFL thing just yet. I was thinking about starting small and just doing local folks guns and seeing how it went. I'm poretty sure I'd need more tools.

Keep the info and ideas coming guys.

Gary

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Mark, is that how your make your gun run so fast? Get liqoured up while you work on it?

I'm not looking at the FFL thing just yet. I was thinking about starting small and just doing local folks guns and seeing how it went. I'm poretty sure I'd need more tools.

Keep the info and ideas coming guys.

Gary

Make sure you have good liability insurance

[Tom S.]

The liability is the one issue that stopped me from working on guns, except my own of course and one close friend.

Just remember, the guy could your best friend, but if something goes wrong that can even remotely be tied back to you, that won't stop the lawsuits. For example, you do a nice trigger job for a friend (never mind a paying customer!), and he drops the gun at home causing it to discharge, shooting the neighbors' dog (or worse). Do you think he will be a good enough friend to not mention the fact that you worked on his gun when some lawyer has him on the stand in a lawsuit?

I'm not trying to steer you away from your dream, just pointing out the value of insurance (and no, I do not sell insurance!).

FWIW, My homeowners insurance refused to renew my insurance when they found out I had a FFL and was a gun dealer.

[HighVelocity]

Arrrrghhhhh I knew there would be some reason not to do this. I hadn't considered the liability aspect of this. Guess I'll just have to pay myself for fixing my own guns. Won't be very profitable though.

[underlug]

The liability is the one issue that stopped me from working on guns, except my own of course and one close friend.

Just remember, the guy could your best friend, but if something goes wrong that can even remotely be tied back to you, that won't stop the lawsuits. For example, you do a nice trigger job for a friend (never mind a paying customer!), and he drops the gun at home causing it to discharge, shooting the neighbors' dog (or worse). Do you think he will be a good enough friend to not mention the fact that you worked on his gun when some lawyer has him on the stand in a lawsuit?

I'm not trying to steer you away from your dream, just pointing out the value of insurance (and no, I do not sell insurance!).

FWIW, My homeowners insurance refused to renew my insurance when they found out I had a FFL and was a gun dealer.

Your best friend may not want to sue you, but, his insurance carrier will. Lawsuits are pretty much name everybody and let (somebody) sort them out

Edited April 23, 2008 by underlug

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The liability is the one issue that stopped me from working on guns, except my own of course and one close friend.

Just remember, the guy could your best friend, but if something goes wrong that can even remotely be tied back to you, that won't stop the lawsuits. For example, you do a nice trigger job for a friend (never mind a paying customer!), and he drops the gun at home causing it to discharge, shooting the neighbors' dog (or worse). Do you think he will be a good enough friend to not mention the fact that you worked on his gun when some lawyer has him on the stand in a lawsuit?

I'm not trying to steer you away from your dream, just pointing out the value of insurance (and no, I do not sell insurance!).

FWIW, My homeowners insurance refused to renew my insurance when they found out I had a FFL and was a gun dealer.

Your best friend may not want to sue you, but, his insurance carrier will. Lawsuits are pretty much name everybody and let (somebody) sort them out

Too many damn bottom feeding revolver shooting Lawyers

Edited April 23, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[bigsaxdog]

getting sued ain't no biggie if you're incorporated. ATF showing up at your door asking you why you're working on someone else's frame for $$$ with no FFL ain't good!!!!

[Toolguy]

The liability is the one issue that stopped me from working on guns, except my own of course and one close friend.

Just remember, the guy could your best friend, but if something goes wrong that can even remotely be tied back to you, that won't stop the lawsuits. For example, you do a nice trigger job for a friend (never mind a paying customer!), and he drops the gun at home causing it to discharge, shooting the neighbors' dog (or worse). Do you think he will be a good enough friend to not mention the fact that you worked on his gun when some lawyer has him on the stand in a lawsuit?

I'm not trying to steer you away from your dream, just pointing out the value of insurance (and no, I do not sell insurance!).

FWIW, My homeowners insurance refused to renew my insurance when they found out I had a FFL and was a gun dealer.

Your best friend may not want to sue you, but, his insurance carrier will. Lawsuits are pretty much name everybody and let (somebody) sort them out

Too many damn bottom feeding revolver shooting Lawyers

Lawyers shoot bottomfeeders (birds of a feather thing) and sue revolver shooters.

[hearthco]

The liability is the one issue that stopped me from working on guns, except my own of course and one close friend.

Just remember, the guy could your best friend, but if something goes wrong that can even remotely be tied back to you, that won't stop the lawsuits. For example, you do a nice trigger job for a friend (never mind a paying customer!), and he drops the gun at home causing it to discharge, shooting the neighbors' dog (or worse). Do you think he will be a good enough friend to not mention the fact that you worked on his gun when some lawyer has him on the stand in a lawsuit?

I'm not trying to steer you away from your dream, just pointing out the value of insurance (and no, I do not sell insurance!).

FWIW, My homeowners insurance refused to renew my insurance when they found out I had a FFL and was a gun dealer.

Your best friend may not want to sue you, but, his insurance carrier will. Lawsuits are pretty much name everybody and let (somebody) sort them out

Too many damn bottom feeding revolver shooting Lawyers

Lawyers shoot bottomfeeders (birds of a feather thing) and sue revolver shooters.

Where is Carmony??

[Waltermitty]

The liability is the one issue that stopped me from working on guns, except my own of course and one close friend.

Just remember, the guy could your best friend, but if something goes wrong that can even remotely be tied back to you, that won't stop the lawsuits. For example, you do a nice trigger job for a friend (never mind a paying customer!), and he drops the gun at home causing it to discharge, shooting the neighbors' dog (or worse). Do you think he will be a good enough friend to not mention the fact that you worked on his gun when some lawyer has him on the stand in a lawsuit?

I'm not trying to steer you away from your dream, just pointing out the value of insurance (and no, I do not sell insurance!).

FWIW, My homeowners insurance refused to renew my insurance when they found out I had a FFL and was a gun dealer.

Your best friend may not want to sue you, but, his insurance carrier will. Lawsuits are pretty much name everybody and let (somebody) sort them out

Too many damn bottom feeding revolver shooting Lawyers

Lawyers shoot bottomfeeders (birds of a feather thing) and sue revolver shooters.

Where is Carmony??

He's takin' names and looking up IP addresses.

Of course, Mike realizes it's just 99% of Lawyers that give the rest a bad name.

[Carmoney]

OK--guess it's time for me to wade in here.

As most of you know, I'm an FFL holder and part-time revolversmith and a full-time civil trial lawyer. I'm one of the good-guy lawyers who does civil defense practice--so if you ever get sued by somebody and turn in the claim to your insurance company, I'm one of the guys who works his ass off to defend you against an unmeritorious lawsuit.

There's no way to legally do gunsmithing work for other people without an FFL. And there's no way to safely do gunsmithing work without liability insurance.

I'm afraid Bigsaxdog is incorrect that a lawsuit is no biggie if you're incorporated. In theory, a corporation or some other limited-liability business entity provides liability protection for its owners in the event of a lawsuit. The idea is, you set up an S-corp or LLC that allows the income to pass through the corporation to its owners, and keep little or no assets in the business--then if the business ever gets sued, it might have to be dissolved but there's nothing left to be attached and seized. That's in theory.

In reality, the minute the plaintiff's attorney figures out he's suing a dead hole, he's going to immediately amend his pleadings to name the individual gunsmith/owner as a party-defendant, under the theory that the corporation or LLC is a legal fiction and sham, and make an argument for "piercing the corporate veil" to go after the gunsmith's personal assets. He may well succeed.

But in any event, the gunsmith now has to mount a legal defense on his own behalf. If he turns in the claim to his homeowner's insurance company seeking a defense, coverage will be denied because general personal liability insurance does not cover business pursuits like gunsmithing work.

So now the gunsmith has to hire counsel and defend himself in order to avoid a default judgment entry. And this is not something you want to try to handle on your own--complex civil litigation work requires specific expertise and experience that even the average general-practice attorney does not possess.

Now, by their nature, most lawsuits against gunsmiths are going to be bullshit claims. We can all agree on that, right? Somebody did something stupid, and now they're trying to make you the scapegoat. The problem is defense costs. Without an insurance carrier being obligated to pay those costs, the individual will now have to cough up the money. A decent defense lawyer will probably budget at least $25,000 in attorney's fees and costs to defend a case like this, particularly because it would almost certainly require retaining expert witness testimony, which doesn't come cheap.

So even if you defend the case through trial, and win an outright defense verdict, you're still out a ton of money. And that's assuming there's no appeal. And even if you have no discernable assets, they can garnish you forever. Really, the only way to protect yourself is to obtain general commercial liability insurance for the business, and play it straight.

People who involve themselves in any sort of small business pursuit should keep this advice firmly in mind. Anytime you work on somebody's home or vehicle for hire, or sell products or food for money, or do almost anything else for which you receive compensation, you are exposing yourself to a liability risk that is not covered by ordinary insurance. Without adequate insurance coverage, everything you make through all your business efforts, plus everything you have by way of personal assets, as well as your future income, is being put at risk.

I frickin' hate paying insurance premiums. And I pay more than most. I live on an acreage property, I'm a small business owner, I have some farm buildings and land I rent out, and I'm a partner in a law firm with a bunch of employees. And I now have two teenage drivers on my auto policy. I don't even want to think about how much it all costs me, because it would probably make me instantly puke onto my keyboard. But I wouldn't be able to sleep at night without knowing I've got reasonable insurance in place.

(By the way, since he specifically invited me into this conversation, I will be sending my bill for the time I spent on this reply to Dave Hearth.)

[Revopop]

(By the way, since he specifically invited me into this conversation, I will be sending my bill for the time I spent on this reply to Dave Hearth.)

That's rounded up to about 2 billable hours, right?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

OK--guess it's time for me to wade in here.

SNIP

(By the way, since he specifically invited me into this conversation, I will be sending my bill for the time I spent on this reply to Dave Hearth.)

With what you would charge and what Dave charges you may get 2 or 3 moonclips

Thanks for some good info Mike, I learned long ago the need for the insurance in my trade. SOBs screw up and expect you to pay.

[HighVelocity]

Thanks for all the good info. Looks like I'll be sticking to my own guns and not getting paid.

[Waltermitty]

Thanks for all the good info. Looks like I'll be sticking to my own guns and not getting paid.

See post #2

[Tom S.]

What Carmoney says not only applies to firearms, but a lot of other businesses as well. I no longer work on other people's cars either. Or computers for that matter.

[Jaxshooter]

If Mike is half the attorney as he is a revolver smith, I want him to defend me.

Take to heart what Mike's reply said. I am also a business owner in the food distribution business. One of my biggest if not the biggest expense annually is liability insurance and workmans comp insurance.

[bigsaxdog]

yeah, you right! i was just talking shizzit when i said getting sued is no biggie. with what public opinion is about our hobby is, no way i would work on somebody's stuff w/o insurance. my buddy's wife has an insurance business, gotta ask her what type would be applicable, and how $$$? and we haven't even had any ATF horror stories yet...... insurance is just $$$$$, those guys w/ the shiny shoes got handcuffs!

Edited April 24, 2008 by bigsaxdog