.308 Muzzle Breaks

[kgunz11]

Craig,

You're right, very little emotion in text. I am not offended but usually the offensive one. My typing skills SUCK when it comes to conveying my feelings. As I said previously in the thread, I have utmost faith and respect in Benny Hill, he has one of my guns right now. I'm going to ask him to send one of his brakes back with it. I have to try one. If it is any better than the PAI I have on my 7WSM, I've gotta have it. Did you know George shot a PAI brake on his rifle at the last ASC? I am surprised some of Benny's brakes have not bled over into the tactical realm if they are as nice as everyone says. I never said Jered's brake was the end all, but it's by far the best I've ever used. If Benny's brake is better, I've got no reservations about switching over.

The crowd here is another breed, excellent guys with great attitudes. It's been very refreshing. I hope to take in as much as I can, the info is great!

[smokshwn]

I haven't run one of Benny's brakes on a precision rifle so it would be hard to say whether or not it is better in that capacity. One of the things about three gun is that the shooter/rifle are rarely in the optimum position as is often the case when shooting a PR. Therefore a more linear brake (PAI, Ops Inc, etc) may prove to be a bit better. However I have a friend who has a DPMS 308 that was reworked by Benny and it is the flattest most controllable 308 I have shot...both offhand and using a rest.

[arrowrod]

Where is the data?

USPSAs Front Sight magazine had a article showing .223 brakes with measured recoil data.

An acquintance of mine, who happens to build gun training simulators, and has a comprehensive machine shop, found a research paper written in the 50s that did an exhaustive study on recoil control.

The paper went on to describe the mathematic formulas needed to machine the optimum recoil device.

Because he is an avid shooter, he has the usual large collection of "brakes", collected over the years. So naturally, he plugged the formulas derived from the research into the collection of brakes, and lo and behold, a few came close. Most were far off. Yes, he has used the research paper to design brakes for his personal guns. He thinks they work better, but has not created a test environment to verify the results.

Apparently, engineering credentials are not necessary in after market brake design.

Mr Hill, do you have measured recoil data showing the superiority of your design?

[bigbrowndog]

i seem to recall a pistol comp designed by an aerospace engineer that used really fancy words like vectoring forces and venturi effects, etc.

The ad seemed to say that this guy that designed the comp had every credential known to man, and that everyone can just throw away the old useless comps you already own, yet after having seen the comp perform I can honestly say it did not reduce muzzle flip more than the comps that other shooters already had.

now recoil perception is more than muzzle flip or muzzle rise, however most, if not all of us are going to judge comps/brakes based on muzzle climb when we see one, and recoil impulse when we shoot one. so saying that one comp/brake is best is hard to determine because we all want or are looking for something different when we shoot. just like some like a slow recoiling handgun and some like a snappy recoiling one.

Pat Kelly's article in FS, is the latest one on brakes that I am aware of, but he does not discuss .308 if my memory serves me right.

Brakes are like cars, if there was one BEST, why would we have so much selection to choose from.

Trapr

[smokshwn]

To add to Trapr's observations, start changing bullet weights, powder charges, types of powder, etc and comp behavior changes with it.

Needless to say regardless of the level of research it would be damn near impossible to accomodate all the variables in an effort to make an "ultra" performing comp for all the shooting needs out there.

[GrumpyGrizz]

Pat Kelly is a Heavy Metal Shooter, what is he using?

[TRUBL]

I've seen Lot's of people claim their brakes are the best, for a number of reasons. But lets look at this from a different perspective.....

Auto racing.....you know, race on Sunday, sell on Monday. People associate winning products with quality, no matter how much engineering, papers, research was put into a product. Of course, keep in mind I am sure no product goes out to the public with out it. Now, bring it back to our sport.....same thing.

What do people think is the best??? What gets used....what wins. And thats....the bottom line. A person can spout off on how good something is in this forum, but if the top shooters aren't using it, winning with it.....it's not going to cut it. OK, price is going to have something to do with it too.

So, a person can ask Benny for his data, they can ask JP for his data, Ask all the comp makers in this game for data......we'll give you names. Names like Kurt Miller, Trapr, Mike Voight, Jerry Mickelick, Daniel Horner, Benny Hill, and the list goes on. These are all the top shooters in the sport, they all use the top equipment. They all use one of the top 3 or 4 comps available on the market. Except that Pat Kelly guy, he uses some off the wall comp that he made on his own (but he is tops too!!). All the data these guys have PROVE there comp is better than anyone else' out there, they have won or placed near the top at many national scale 3 gun matches. There is no disputing that fact. And, again, bottom line, it's the only fact that matters.

There are lots of choices for the top equipment used in this game......if you want people to take note of your product, get it out there in the hands of the top shooters, sponsor this sport. Be active in it......your name too can be added to the list of best comps made. I'm not doing this as reprimand, or tongue in cheek thing, it's more of reality thing.....come on in, you are more than welcome!!! 3 gun has lots of room for more sponsors, I garuantee EVERYONE will welcome you with open arms.....may even use your product too!!!...AND, it might just become the best comp out there.

And then....Benny will be heart broken

Edited April 5, 2008 by TRUBL

[kgunz11]

I've seen Lot's of people claim their brakes are the best, for a number of reasons. But lets look at this from a different perspective.....

Auto racing.....you know, race on Sunday, sell on Monday. People associate winning products with quality, no matter how much engineering, papers, research was put into a product. Of course, keep in mind I am sure no product goes out to the public with out it. Now, bring it back to our sport.....same thing.

What do people think is the best??? What gets used....what wins. And thats....the bottom line. A person can spout off on how good something is in this forum, but if the top shooters aren't using it, winning with it.....it's not going to cut it. OK, price is going to have something to do with it too.

So, a person can ask Benny for his data, they can ask JP for his data, Ask all the comp makers in this game for data......we'll give you names. Names like Kurt Miller, Trapr, Mike Voight, Jerry Mickelick, Daniel Horner, Benny Hill, and the list goes on. These are all the top shooters in the sport, they all use the top equipment. They all use one of the top 3 or 4 comps available on the market. Except that Pat Kelly guy, he uses some off the wall comp that he made on his own (but he is tops too!!). All the data these guys have PROVE there comp is better than anyone else' out there, they have won or placed near the top at many national scale 3 gun matches. There is no disputing that fact. And, again, bottom line, it's the only fact that matters.

There are lots of choices for the top equipment used in this game......if you want people to take note of your product, get it out there in the hands of the top shooters, sponsor this sport. Be active in it......your name too can be added to the list of best comps made. I'm not doing this as reprimand, or tongue in cheek thing, it's more of reality thing.....come on in, you are more than welcome!!! 3 gun has lots of room for more sponsors, I garuantee EVERYONE will welcome you with open arms.....may even use your product too!!!...AND, it might just become the best comp out there.

And then....Benny will be heart broken

That's about the silliest thing I've ever heard. I guess, in your way of thinking, the Tubb 2000 is the best bolt rifle made, since it has won many national and world titles. I think it has more to do with the driver, you can't buy a win, and it appears to me that is what you are advocating. I totally disagree with the thought that because someone has won with something or the fact they use it because it was given to them by a corporate sponsor that makes it better than any other product. John Whidden won the 2007 National Long Range Championship at Camp Perry using a home smithed Winchester action rifle. Does that now make Winchester the best action for palma and long range shooting? I think not. He's also the Georgia 7 time long range champion, still does not quantify that thinking in my book. I think the guys winning are winning because they are excellent shooters, not because they use a Miculek brake.

I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone, I responded to the original poster with my honest opinion. I've shot heavy recoiling rifles for some time now, and I've owned a lot of brakes, the Patriot Arms brake is the best I have ever used. I can watch the sparks fly out of my 7wsm shooting 180 Berger VLD's @ 300 yards on steel. At 1200 yards I can call my shots watching the splash through the scope. I have them on my .308 as well. I've tried others, it's the best I've used. On the .338 LM it actually reduces recoil more than a suppressor. Unlike you, I'm not knocking anything or any design I haven't tried, just commenting on my personal experience, and I named the other brakes I compared it to.

I told Jered Joplin of Patriot Arms I was going to purchase one of Benny's brakes and let him install it. He replied with:

Sounds good. I'd also like to see something that beats this break. If so I'll buy it and not have to make these. I didn't set out to do anything other than have something available that works. If there is something better I'm game. I just haven't seen it.

[bigbrowndog]

I believe you missed Tim's point, as well as mine.

Variety, Variety, Variety.

you are also comparing apples (magnums) and oranges (.308's)

Trapr

[kgunz11]

I believe you missed Tim's point, as well as mine.

Variety, Variety, Variety.

you are also comparing apples (magnums) and oranges (.308's)

Trapr

I have the sane brake on my .308's. I used the 7WSM comparison because it has significantly more recoil. I average around 500 rounds of precision long range rifle a month, most of it in .308. Up until recently (last 2 months) I shot on a 1000 yard range every weekend. It's my brake of pref is all I'm saying. I'm going to try one of Benny's and I'll report back on what I think.

[TRUBL]

Nah.......I'm not gonna get into it with ya, not my style.....even though you've humiliated me in public now

I'll just state my opinion.......the BEST brakes out there for the .308 is the Thunder Comp, the JP Coolie Comp, the F2 and Jerry's (you get to pick the order).......might (as in may) be a few others. But these 4 have been PROVEN in 3 gun competition to be the BEST out there in the last several years. There are some new comers that have shown promise, but, really none that have withstood the test of time.

Tim

[Chuck Anderson]

Frankly, you are knocking other designs you haven't tried. You make a bold statement that PAI is the best comp. Bar none. When folks try to say that they've had good luck with other designs you argue with them and say that they don't have the data to back it up. If a 50 year old article on recoil control is what you're basing this on good luck convincing guys here that your buddies design is better. 3-Gun requires more than the ability to watch shots hit at x distance, or pure recoil control. That's why no one uses a suppressor and plans on being competetive. If you think that the top guys are using x design because the gunsmiths are showering them with sponsorship and free parts, you're wrong. These guys are using whatever design they think they will be competetive with. For three gun there are a lot of factors that go into a good break, recoil control, muzzle rise, back blast, how much dust is kicked up when shooting prone, weight, pointability. I've shot comps that are too effective before, they push the muzzle of the rifle down and off target.

I've used a couple different designs on my three gun rifles. I'm currently using JP and SureFire muzzle breaks, depending on what I'm doing. I don't see a huge difference between either one. I've used the Miculek brake before and didnt' like it. Doesn't mean it's not a good comp, just not to my liking. It's obvious you like the PAI comp. Good, I'm sure it works well for you. But the question at the beginning of the thread was what are heavy metal shooters using. Is there a single Heavy Metal shooter using the PAI comp?

[kgunz11]

Frankly, you are knocking other designs you haven't tried. You make a bold statement that PAI is the best comp. Bar none. When folks try to say that they've had good luck with other designs you argue with them and say that they don't have the data to back it up. If a 50 year old article on recoil control is what you're basing this on good luck convincing guys here that your buddies design is better. 3-Gun requires more than the ability to watch shots hit at x distance, or pure recoil control. That's why no one uses a suppressor and plans on being competetive. If you think that the top guys are using x design because the gunsmiths are showering them with sponsorship and free parts, you're wrong. These guys are using whatever design they think they will be competetive with. For three gun there are a lot of factors that go into a good break, recoil control, muzzle rise, back blast, how much dust is kicked up when shooting prone, weight, pointability. I've shot comps that are too effective before, they push the muzzle of the rifle down and off target.

I've used a couple different designs on my three gun rifles. I'm currently using JP and SureFire muzzle breaks, depending on what I'm doing. I don't see a huge difference between either one. I've used the Miculek brake before and didnt' like it. Doesn't mean it's not a good comp, just not to my liking. It's obvious you like the PAI comp. Good, I'm sure it works well for you. But the question at the beginning of the thread was what are heavy metal shooters using. Is there a single Heavy Metal shooter using the PAI comp?

Lawman,

I think you should go back and read the posts again. The word "data" is not in any of my posts, Tim mentioned data. I also never said the PAI brake was the best bar none, what I said was:

I've shot a lot of rifles and a lot of brakes, by FAR the Patriot Arms brake is the most effective I have ever shot.

I also named the other brakes I have tried, it's there in plain text, I can't help on the comprehension end.

I haven't argued that other brakes aren't effective, I only said because the 3 gun crowd isn't using them is not because they aren't effective, I think it's a matter of the circle. Everyone in the precision rifle group is very familiar with Patriot Arms. I never took anything from the brakes being used by the 3 gun crowd, I just introduced an alternative.

And I also wanted to comment on your thought of no one using a suppressor. It is my belief from experience (I own 3 suppressors) that a can is more effective than a brake in almost all calibers of rifles. The reason no one is using them is pretty simple, the weight. It's not that they don't work, they're just awfully heavy compared to a light weight muzzle brake and they add length to the rifle which can be very cumbersome.

As far as the free sponsorship stuff, you missed on that one as well. I never said that, I defended that as not being a valid reason for using one. Go back and re-read everything before jumping in on the feeding frenzy.

I'll even go as far as to pay for a PAI brake for one of the "Heavy Metal"(what exactly does that mean anyway, is that a class?) guys to try. Lawman, go read the first post in its entirety, there was more than one question, and I offered a suggestion with my experience in my honest opinion. YMMV

Edited April 7, 2008 by kgunz11

[Chuck Anderson]

PM sent in an effort to not completely derail this thread.

[kgunz11]

I want to offer my apologies to anyone that might have gotten offended with my participation in this thread. I suck at typing and conveying my thoughts. It doesn't read like it's spoken. I always thought debate in pursuit of information was positive. I posted on what I have found as the best brake I personally have used, in gas guns or bolt rifles. You guys are free to use what you like, of course you know that. I'm glad I have many options to chose from. Dave Sevigny wins shooting a Glock, but I still like my 1911/2011's better.

TRUBL, Lawman, Benny, or anyone I might have offended, my sincerest apologies.

[kurtm]

Okay I will take you up on your offer. I need one set up for an M-14/M1A. I will compair it to the SJC that I now have and we shall see. The SJC seems to do a darn good job, and I haven't got a Roller yet for an M-14, but it would be darn hard to beat either of these two, but I would like to find one that would, as that would be just a bit more of an edge. Just give me a P.M. and let me know. Kurt Miller

[JamShot]

For me there isn't much of a difference what kind of comp there is at the end of the barrel. I've tried 3-5 chamber comps with tilted and straigt holes and geometries and they all do work fine. What I found bothering was additional speed that carrier gained from back-pulse of comp compaired to one without one. But by adjusting gases the bottom line was that pretty much anything works with .308. And all the better if using NATO-rounds giving some extra gas.

I'm not saying that they don't have any differences, but they do seem small.

Just my 2c.

FAL with small (25mm x 50mm) 3 port comp

-JamShot