.357 mag loads in .38spl cases in a S&W 686?

[mpolans]

So I'm curious. As I understand it, .38 special and .357 mag are dimensionally the same except .357 is longer. In addition, the S&W 686 is designed to fire .357 mag, so it can also fire .38 specials.

Now, suppose one wants to shoot loads that would be significantly hotter than .38+p loads, but a little less than .357 mag levels and is thinking of using .38 cases for two reasons:

1. Lower case capacity would result in a case with less empty volume, resulting in less variation in velocity and resulting accuracy.

2. Some powders being considered are volume sensitive and reduced loads that would leave too much empty volume in a .357 mag case wouldn't in a .38 case.

As long as these loads are only fired in a revolver designed to shoot .357 mag, does anyone see a problem?

[G-ManBart]

1. Lower case capacity would result in a case with less empty volume, resulting in less variation in velocity and resulting accuracy.

2. Some powders being considered are volume sensitive and reduced loads that would leave too much empty volume in a .357 mag case wouldn't in a .38 case.

I think #1 might be suspect. The most accurate ammo you're going to find in most 38/357s is an extremely mild wadcutter with something like 3gr of very fast powder in it. They don't take up much space in the case, but they don't have erratic velocity. It's not a bad theory, I just don't know that it always works that way in practice.

On #2 any powder charge that wouldn't fit in a .38 case is going to be more than enough to fill up a .357 case enough that it will work fine.

I just can't see any good reason for doing this. With so many great powder options out there it's unlikely you can't find several that will work perfectly in a reduced .357 load.

[mpolans]

Okay, here's the goal:

I want to fire an 88gr bullet at 1475fps from a 6" S&W 686 with as little variation in velocity as possible.

Got any loads to suggest?

Assume other bullet weights are unavailable.

Edited March 14, 2008 by mpolans

[Allgoodhits]

So I'm curious. As I understand it, .38 special and .357 mag are dimensionally the same except .357 is longer. In addition, the S&W 686 is designed to fire .357 mag, so it can also fire .38 specials.

Now, suppose one wants to shoot loads that would be significantly hotter than .38+p loads, but a little less than .357 mag levels and is thinking of using .38 cases for two reasons:

1. Lower case capacity would result in a case with less empty volume, resulting in less variation in velocity and resulting accuracy.

2. Some powders being considered are volume sensitive and reduced loads that would leave too much empty volume in a .357 mag case wouldn't in a .38 case.

As long as these loads are only fired in a revolver designed to shoot .357 mag, does anyone see a problem?

PRESSURE is the primary issue that causes risk. Factory .357 loads are hotter not so much becasue of more powder, but the type of powder. Slower burning powders often require more powder by weight to generate projectile velocity. This is often done with a longer barrel but always with a less peaky pressure curve. Put another way, the load data i.e. bullet and powder charge for a .357 load placed into a 38 spl case may in fact be unsafe whether it is fired in a .38 spl or a .357 magnum firearm due to the pressure spike or peak pressure depending on the choice of powder chosen.

There are numerous manuals with tons of .38 spl & .357 magnum data collected over many decades. I doubt that any recipe that you or anyone else comes up with will be any better than some of the time tested data of yesteryear.

Be safe,

MJ

[mlmiller1]

Just a thought, but in sorting lots & lots of brass, the 38spl brass seems considerably lighter to me. If you have to experiment, please find some solid 38brass. The makeup of most of what I've seen seems to be a lighter material.

MLM

[sargenv]

I did something like the above suggested when I was pretty new to loading metallic.

I picked up some of those 88 grainers.. and loaded them with a hot charge of Blue Dot.. I think I was pushing like 18 gr.. these days it would likely be a 16 gr charge as Blue dot has changed formulation. The big problem is that for that light of a bullet, you may not build enough pressure to get it moving that fast.. but you may wish to try something like Blue Dot, Longshot, or any of the medium slow burning pistol powders.. there will be an awful lot of flash for that thing.. At the time I loaded that ammo in a 6" GP 100. The primers were getting pretty flat.. and um, you are taking this advice at your own risk.

[Guy Neill]

Two particular reasons you may not want to load 357 Magnum level loads in 38 Special Cases. First off, the small 38 case will yield higher pressures than the same load in a Magnum case. Second - what if it did find it's way into a 38 revolver?

Guy

[Larry Burchfield]

I've loaded 357 mag cases with 150gr semiwadcutters using unique powder before without any problems. You might look into some of the cowboy action powders as they are susposed to work well with light charges. I use Tte group in my 38spec with a 125 rdnose at the present time.

Good luck

Larry

[coldchar]

Don't load hot loads in a 38 special case even if fired in an N frame. The web at the base of the brass in 38 special is designed to only handle a certain pressure level. I assume the walls on the .357 brass are thicker but I have never miked them.

There are more differences between the 38 special case and the .357 case then meets the eye. I guarantee you will end up with either case head separation or the brass expanding so tight in the cylinder you will need a hammer to get it out.

Edited March 14, 2008 by coldchar

[UW Mitch]

If you do this, another consideration is to be vigilant in marking these really really hot 38spl rounds as really really hot, so that you or someone else doesn't toss em in a j-frame and end up with mangled fingers.

~Mitch

[mpolans]

Okay,

1. Assume these will NEVER find their way into a J-Frame...they will never go into anything but a L-Frame (S&W 686) with a 6" barrel.

2. Does anybody have any experience with a specific load involving a 88 or 90 gr. bullet in EITHER a .38 special or .357 magnum going 1475fps, keeping in mind #1 above?

[kframe_mike]

Just being curious here.What are you wanting to do with these?Run a comp?That light of a bullet in either case is probably going to give you pretty high SDs/ESs any way you go.-Mike

[mpolans]

Just being curious here.What are you wanting to do with these?Run a comp?That light of a bullet in either case is probably going to give you pretty high SDs/ESs any way you go.-Mike

Minimize lead on a moving target. Oh, and I made a boo boo. The bullets aren't 88 grains, they're 97 grains. And before someone mentions it, assume the amount of bearing surface engaging the rifling is not a factor.

Edited March 15, 2008 by mpolans

[Allgoodhits]

Just being curious here.What are you wanting to do with these?Run a comp?That light of a bullet in either case is probably going to give you pretty high SDs/ESs any way you go.-Mike

Minimize lead on a moving target. Oh, and I made a boo boo. The bullets aren't 88 grains, they're 97 grains. And before someone mentions it, assume the amount of bearing surface engaging the rifling is not a factor.

Now we are getting somewhere! Bianchi Mover plans?

Don't worry about "minimizing lead" on a moving target, since you will have lead anyway. It is more important to have good "hold references" regardless of the lead amount. The Bianchi Mover has been shot for 29 years now, and many have tried all sorts of combinations. Your proposed 97gr bullets at 1475 fps will yield a 143K PF and you still have to hold some lead, less but still lead. An accurate, consistent load and decent lead hold "references" are the key, not minimal lead. Trust me, this works and wheels are round, and the earth is round. Excess experimentation in super fast light bullets is a waste of time!

The Bianchi Mover target travels at 10 fps over a 60 ft window for an exposure of 6 seconds. The distances fired are 10, 15, 20 & 25 yds. The target is 18" wide, thus 9" from center to edge. The X ring is 4", the 10 ring is 8" and the 8 ring is 12" thus they are 2" , 4" and 6" from center to either 3 or 9 oclock. Also at Bianchi you need minimum PF or 120,000. This requires "minimum 3 shot average" velocity of 960fps for a 125 gr bullet and 811fps for a 148 gr bullet.

If you are shooting an L frame or comparable then I would suggest a 125gr jacket bullet at 1,000 fps. This will give a PF of 125,000 and the lead will works as follows. BTW, unless you are using a mover base or lead compensating scope or some other method of dialed in lead, I would not suggest any bullet slowr than about 1,000 fps, although many have good success with 148gr lead WC running 840-870 fps. If your 686 is not comped, then the 148 WC @ 850 fps may be the way to go. Both these laod combos usually yield very good accuracy from most 6" barrel guns.

A 1,000 fps bullet will need lead as follows:

10 yds requires about 3.6" of lead. Just outside the X ring or just inside the 10 ring which would be 2" and 4" references

15 yds requires about 5.4". Just outside the 10 ring or just inside the 8 ring which would be 4" and 6" references

20 yds requires about 7.2" of lead. Just outside the 8 ring which is 6" reference.

25 yds requires about 9" of lead. Thus at target edge, a 9" reference since the target is 18" wide. BTW, slower than 1000 fps bullets would have you holding in "air" ahead of the target at 25 yds.

The newest Bianchi Target is the AP-1 which replaces the D-1. The AP-1 target has a black X ring (bullseye) and all other rings now have a black (visible) line. With metallic sights your hold is only so good and the target is moving and sometimes bouncing. AREA aiming is the key, with lead and follow through and smooth trigger work. Precise aiming spot is not a key.

Keep it simple. For 1,000 fps bullets, Quarter the target side, left or right. At 10 yds aim 1/4 the way from target center to target edge. At 15 yds aim 1/2 the way from center to target edge, at 20 yds aim 3/4 to way to target edge and at 25 yds aim at edge. When you get more used to shooting on a BC mover, then more refined aiming area may benefit you.

BTW the formula for calc lead is as follows for a target traveling 10 fps is: Distance to target in feet divided by bullet velocity, times 10 times 12. This will yield lead required in inches.

In closing check with manuals, but a 125gr JHP in a .38 spl case loaded with about 4.6gr of TiteGroup will run just about 1,000fps. W231 will require about 5.6gr or about 6gr of Unigue. If you want to run 148gr lead wadcutters then about 3.1 gr of Tite Group or 3.5gr of W231 will give you right at 850 fps. Do the math with a 148gr bullet at 850 and you will find the lead is also friendly since the lead required gives good hold references at 4.23" (10 ring) at 10 yds, 6.35" (8 ring) at 15 yds, 8.46" ( midway between 8 ring and target edge) and 10.58" ( just ahead of target edge) at 25 yds.

Are you going to Chambersburg, PA on 3/16 to shoot an NRA AP Match? If so, several of us are meeting at NRA HQ near the NRA Range entrance at 7 AM. If you have not been to Chambersburg, then follow us if you wish. It's about 100 miles from NRA HQ or about an hour 1:45 minutes. Chambersburg, PA is the closest place in our area to shoot. Next closest is Bedford, VA (180 miles) then Jackson, NJ (230 miles) then Hinton, WV (280 miles) and Bluefield, VA (330 miles) and Columbia, MO or Bianchi Cup about 980 miles from Fairfax, VA.

Martin

Edited March 15, 2008 by Allgoodhits

[Guy Neill]

Anytime we load stuff, we know where it will be used - right?

But, at some point, someone will inherit what we have. Will they know what gun what ammo is for?

Guy

[Allgoodhits]

Anytime we load stuff, we know where it will be used - right?

But, at some point, someone will inherit what we have. Will they know what gun what ammo is for?

Guy

Guy,

You are dead on the money. Many handloaders, especially these days, totally ignore SAAMI specs. Those specs are there to help us save our guns, save our hands & faces and save others from our stupidity. Handloaded ammo today is worthless to me, unless I loaded it, or I know who did and with what recipe. A bit too much creativity by some for me.

BTW, did you mount the Piatt shroud on a project gun? How is Lauren? See you in Columbia......once again in May!

Martin

[mpolans]

Anytime we load stuff, we know where it will be used - right?

But, at some point, someone will inherit what we have. Will they know what gun what ammo is for?

Guy

I don't know about you, but I never let anyone use my ammo unless I know exactly what the load is and they know exactly what the load is, and even then, I don't let anyone use it unless it's a pretty conservative load.

I don't shoot anyone's reloads except my own. If I run across some reloaded ammo and I don't know the source or my reloading label has fallen off/is illegible, it all goes in the "do not shoot" box.

Shooting unknown reloads or letting someone else shoot your reloads, can be a express ticket to unpleasantness, hard feelings, and/or pain.

[mpolans]

Allgoodhits, you got it. I figured if I could get a bullet going about 1500fps, my lead at 25 yards ought to be six inches, and everything closer would be pretty close to dead center. I'll see you at Chambersburg, but I'm coming from Annapolis.

Mark

[Guy Neill]

Martin,

Given that I spent the last several months looking for a new job - my plans for Bianchi this year went away. Now, with a new job, I don't think I'll have the time to attend - but we'll see. But no real time to get a gun together as I had intended, when I had parts availability at a good price.

Loren's doing well at this point - still mostly a waiting game. We're still working on making certain she is there for the 30th - and the best way of getting her and the boys there.

Take care - hope to say hi there.

Guy