Never Stop...

[Ron Ankeny]

I shot a match in the wind yesterday and I learned a very important lesson. Just keep shooting unless the RO stops you unless there is a serious safety issue. I was shooting along and I get to a spot that had a couple of plates and apparantly the wind had blown the plates over but I assumed they were never reset. Like a dumb ass, I stopped shooting and I look at the RO and he tells me to keep shooting because the clock is running. I tell him the plates are down and his reply is, "SO?" Well, I tell him to score as is and I'll live with the zero and I am finished. I unload and show clear.

In the subsequent conversation I learned that while I was loading my magazines the squad had decided to count hits on steel that wouldn't fall and if a piece had blown down just to wing one over the top of it and move on. With the 40+ winds we would be there all day if we had every one reshoot because of range failures. I can live with that at the informal club level because it was either take that action or cancel the match. After a couple of minutes of whining like a little baby they gave me a reshoot to get me to shut up, lol.

Here's my question, what would happen at a big match if the cometitor decides to stop shooting because of an obvious range failure? I am guessing it is the shooter's responsibility to just keep going unless the RO stops him?

[Detlef]

these things happen every now and then. The RO may not be in a position (though he should...) from where he can see the malfunctioning targets before the shooter gets to it. In general, once the shooter points out down targets or other malfunctions, any good RO would issue the reshoot. But yes, I have made it a habit to just go on, no matter what, until an RO stops me. The big danger about stopping yourself is that your mind malfunctioned, not the range equipment, and then there's no reshoot! Let an RO make that determination, except for immediately safety relevant things like a spectator in the line of fire or some such...

--Detlef

[xcount]

Put yourself on the arbitration committee for this one.......

Stage is set like a bunker, wall with several low ports through which the targets must be engaged. Start position is sitting on ammo crate a couple yards back from the wall.

Beep!!! The shooter moves from the crate to the 1st port, drawing gun as he approaches. Shooter aims through the port and stops.

Shooter lowers the gun, looks at the RO, says those targets aren't taped. RO says, "If you are finished, etc., etc.".

Shooter unloads, holsters, etc. The RO calls it a DNF (this was under the old rules). Shooter says, "Whoa, I get a re-shoot, right?"

Nope.

It goes to arbitration.

Cast your vote.

[Shooter Grrl]

Bad example - under the old rules, the shooter automatically got a reshoot for untaped targets, so the shooter was right at the time.

We all know now though, that there is no DNF, and if the RO can ascertain your hits, he will

[Loves2Shoot]

A RO's job is to watch the gun , not the targets. If you stop yourself you are screwed. Always complain after the COF, because if you stop yourself you most likely will get a big fat 0. I have seen this many times with untaped targets, and I haven't seen anyone get a reshoot, although it is very distracting.

[xcount]

From the 7th edition rule book.....

"A target not being taped from a previous competitor is not reason fro a reshoot, as long as a complete score can be given."

[BarryRM 18]

Two instances at the Mosquito match, targets not taped, shooter stopped, re-shoot given as failure to tape his targets interfered with his attempt to complete course of fire, another stage, shooter did not stop (I don't think he noticed) and his hits were easy to score 9mm v .40. The non taping of the targets did not interfere with his attempt, no re-shoot. He only asked when he realised he had not engaged a target. Was I too lenient, Vince?

[bgary]

There are two different answers (both of which probably lead to "don't stop")

If you are shooting a stage and see that targets were not taped, don't stop. Under the rules (red book, US 14th), unrestored targets do NOT get you a reshoot. In the IPSC rules, if it is not "obvious" which hits are the shooter's, the RO will order a reshoot, but in the US, it is NOT a reshoot. See US 9.1.4.2 - it says that if there are a bunch of hits of the same caliber, the shooter gets the best hits of the bunch. If there are different calibers, the shooter gets the hits of his/her caliber, AND gets the benefit of the doubt on misses, if there are hits of a larger caliber on the target.

If you are shooting a stage and see that steel is down, don't stop - keep going until the RO notices it - but, you SHOULD get a reshoot. See 4.5.1

Bruce

[xcount]

Or you could stop shooting and then hope to get a generous arbitration committee.

The committee in this case acknowledged the "no reshoot" part of the rules. However, they ruled that the shooter had not started the COF yet (no shots fired) and gave him a "re-start".

[George]

Area 1 3 Gun, two examples. Each illustrate the opposite possibility.

Leftover stage from Area 1 pistol match, swinging bar doors, 160 degree paper target engagement, then knock over a dummy to activate, and shoot four movers which closes the stage. Squad leader/CRO runs me, I activate swingers, one doesn't go. RO stops me, and re-shoot is given. Right call because the target was never presented to me.

Five shooters later, I am running Squad Leader/CRO, he shoots all of the swingers, and we finish. He says that I am gonna have a hard time scoring this one. I look and see all targets still moving, but was primarily watching his gun, but peripheraly aware that all seemed to go well so am not exactly sure what he meant. We get closer to score, and I see that a target face has blown off one of the swingers, leaving the previous target (the shooter tells me it happened as the swinger started moving). I look and see 5, or 6 A hits in the remaining old target of his caliber, and say no sweat, two A's. Good call because as Bruce said, in the US the shooter get's the best hits of his caliber.

The RO did the right thing stopping me because the range equipment really had failed.

I did the right thing in not stopping the shooter, and because he never even hesitated in his shooting, he also did the right thing. Even if I had seen the target fly off, as long as there is still another target there, then there really is no failure of range equipment, and the shooters distraction is not enough to warrant a re-shoot.

Moral in all of these stories is to keep shooting until you are done, or you realize there is a good reason to stop, or you are told to stop.

Regards,

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

If I'm shooting, the only reasons I will stop are:

1. If the RO orders me to stop;

2. If I see someone downrange, I get injured or I run out of ammo;

3. If I see any metal target not reset or a penalty target which has not been patched or painted.

The first two are no-brainers, and the last one is something which is difficult (or impossible) to argue later.

xcount: Under current rules, no re-shoot.

Loves2shoot: The RO's job is not limited to watching the competitor's gun. An RO worth his salt can multi-task.

Barry: If I'm the RO, you will never see unrestored targets. Not ever. It's better to take an extra 2 minutes to check everything is in order before the competitor begins his attempt at the COF than to screw with his mind and give him an unneccessary reshoot, which could possibly result in a match DQ. Not on my shift.

Bruce: I'm sure you mean that if a metal scoring target is down, don't stop, but tell the RO at the end of the COF if he doesn't automatically order a reshoot.

[Ron Ankeny]

Vince:

Argh...the lesson I learned was not to stop when I see steel has not been set...now you say you would stop?

[xcount]

Vince,

I agree - no reshoot. But they didn't give him a reshoot, they gave him a restart. (Arb committee's words, not mine.)

[Skywalker]

Ron,

yours was clearly a stage malfunction problem.

Given this, you had two choices:

1. Carry on shooting, throwing two shots to the missing plates and pretending you knocked them down (since the RO didn't stop you he probably didn't notice they were down). I don't like this option, because it looks like cheating to me.

2. Stop before engaging the plates, show the RO the situation, and hope he will realize the stage malfunction. It is quite risky, because if the RO refuses to acknowledge the stage malfunction you are toasted.

In a similar case I took option 2, and was lucky enough the RO realized the popper I should have engaged was down (wind blow).

I wouldn't either accept your squad decision, because every such change shall be clearly stated during the stage briefing, and the RO shall make sure every shooter in the squad has been given the same information (and this applies to all following squads too).

[BarryRM 18]

You are right Vince, unfortunately, I did not personally check the targets before the next shooter. I was the area CRO and had just been called to this stage for a dispute, the RO was Polish and spoke no English, the shooter was Austrian and needed an interpretor, the Polish/English translater was a 14 year old (but his English is better than my Polish). It took a while to sort that out and the patcher screwed up and I was still sorting another problem, when the next shooter went. Then 3 of us double checked the targets. Then the plates seized up When it hits the fan But everyone seemed happy and things progressed better. Morale; don't get sidetracked by translating when you should be patching.

Barry

[Vince Pinto]

Barry,

You mean you're an IROA official and you can't speak Polish and German ??? IROA officials are required to speak at least fifteen foreign languages, and four of those must be Spanish, Cantonese, American and Klingon. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to report you to IROA.

Xcount,

We already revised Rule 8.3.4 to allow for a restart if a guy does not react to a start signal (i.e. he doesn't hear it), but once he reacts (which includes making an attempt at a draw), the meter's running dude.

Ron,

My advice about stopping for metal targets which have not been reset was given as a competitor, and this is largely based on the assumption (fingers crossed) that my RO is on the ball.

[Loves2Shoot]

Vince,

I respectively disagree. If the RO doesn't stop you, don't stop period. I do think that although a RO can multi task, but I always try to keep my eyes on the gun, let the ARO keep track of the scoring part of the game. Safety first.

[xcount]

Vince,

Yes, if the shooter reacts (which this shooter did, getting all the way to aiming at targets) and then stops - as you say, the meter's running and there ain't no reshoot. Execpt at this particular match, with this particular arbitration committee, this particular shooter got a "re-start". As the saying goes - on any given Sunday.

Now, on to your other point. You say the rules have been revised to allow for a restart if the shooter doesn't react. Up until this point (rule revision) what was the proper course of action?

[Vince Pinto]

Xcount,

The rule I mentioned took effect in IPSC on 1 January 2003 but, prior to that there was no rule, so I guess a lot depended on the RO.

For me though, if a competitor didn't move at all after the buzzer, I would certainly restart him after checking whether he needed me to hold the timer closer, and the new rule was merely written to document an accepted practice. In fact, I know of cases where the competitor was so hard of hearing that he asked the RO to tap him on the shoulder as soon as the buzzer sounded.

However if you move, the meter's running, so don't even think about flubbing your draw and giving me cow eyes

[BarryRM 18]

Vince,

I have been taking lessons; Petok, phonetic spelling of Klingon. I am not sure of the meaning but it is in the words of Spock "A colourful metaphor"

Possibly the same as "Sugawena" which is Swahili and has many meanings all depending on tone of voice, but basically "you are yapping BS".

Byee,

Barry