Short Colt Questions

[JamesLovesJammie]

I've noticed that many people on here use .38 short colt rounds for competition. I've got a couple of questions.

What I have noticed is that many people use 124 to 130 grain .355/.356 bullets. Why not use a 125 grain .357/.358 bullet instead? I've slugged my barrel and it comes out to .357, and I often use .358 cast bullets with great accuracy. Wouldn't a smaller 9mm class bullet have too much blowby to be very accurate? I wouldn't think a smaller lead bullet would slug up to the barrel, especially with a bevel base design. Am I even in the right ballpark here?

Secondly, are the 9mm and .38 short colt roughly the same case capacity? Could 9mm data be used with the proper bullet if used in a .357 magnum since the 9mm and .357 are both 35,000 psi loads?

Finally, are 9mm and .38 short colt the same length? Could I use a lee trimmer for a 9mm with a .38 special shell holder to trim .38 special brass into .38 short colt brass? I know .357 shouldn't be used because it is thicker toward the base than .38 special.

Thanks for the help everyone! Sorry I have so many questions, but I am just getting into compeition and am lurking and reading as much as I can!

James

[Carmoney]

I've noticed that many people on here use .38 short colt rounds for competition. I've got a couple of questions.

What I have noticed is that many people use 124 to 130 grain .355/.356 bullets. Why not use a 125 grain .357/.358 bullet instead? I've slugged my barrel and it comes out to .357, and I often use .358 cast bullets with great accuracy. Wouldn't a smaller 9mm class bullet have too much blowby to be very accurate? I wouldn't think a smaller lead bullet would slug up to the barrel, especially with a bevel base design. Am I even in the right ballpark here?

I tend to agree with you. I have had excellent results with the Bushwacker 145-gr. RN in size .357.

Secondly, are the 9mm and .38 short colt roughly the same case capacity? Could 9mm data be used with the proper bullet if used in a .357 magnum since the 9mm and .357 are both 35,000 psi loads?

Should be about right.

Finally, are 9mm and .38 short colt the same length? Could I use a lee trimmer for a 9mm with a .38 special shell holder to trim .38 special brass into .38 short colt brass? I know .357 shouldn't be used because it is thicker toward the base than .38 special.

I have heard of some people cutting down .38 Spl. brass this way. I prefer Starline .38 Short Colt brass myself, since my Hearthco moonclips are specifically sized for that brass. Plus, life is too short to sit around sawing off brass!!

Thanks for the help everyone! Sorry I have so many questions, but I am just getting into compeition and am lurking and reading as much as I can!

Welcome aboard!

[Bill Sahlberg]

When I first started to develop my loads for my .38/.357 guns I had many of the same questions and had the "experts" tell me I was barking up the wrong tree. Have you ever tried factory .38 Super in a .38 or .357 revolver? They shoot just fine....I have always thought outside of "their box".

When I spoke to the Production Mgr at Starline Brass, he told me that ALL .38 Short, Long, S&W, Special and .357 is exactly the same specs, drawn and formed on the same machines with the only difference being the headstamp and the length of case. From here I started looking at faster ways to reload with the shortest brass possible.

The .45 acp was very short and loads faster that the .45 Long Colt so I bought my first 1000 cases of .38 Colt Short from Starline and was on my quest to making major (kinda like 9MM major) but the cases swell so bad that you cannot easlily eject them. That directed me to loading for minor and I was off to the races.

I did look at 9MM specs to start my load development but was told that the 3/4" of "freebore" to the forcing cone would cause too much wear and accuracy could not be achieved with the promise of bullets tumbling. FALSE, as I have 50K+ through my first 627 and also my old rugged Taurus 608 where I had first started. It is the "end" of a barrel that achieves accuracy, not the beginning or middle. When you "re-crown" an old shot out barrel the .0005 that is taken down leaves you the same results as a new barrel as far as accuracy.

The "Myth" of .355, .356, .357, and .358 bullets and having gasses by-pass the bullet leading to poor accuracy is also FALSE. Have you ever seen bullets tumble from revos and autos? This is usually NOT the gun but cheap and poorly shaped bullets whose back edge is not squared perfectly and or the bullet is loaded way too hot. The accuracy achieved by PPC with a 148 gr WC is at 600-700 fps, nowhere close to the 1100 fps that I shoot my .38 Colt Shorts.

BTW< I have NEVER trimmed any pistol brass in my life, this is a waste of time. My .38 Colt Short brass has 17+ reloads and I have very few cases starting to split. I DO NOT bell the cases at the powder drop station as the few .000" allow a .355 bullet to load in snuggly already.

This information is not found in books and most people are afraid to "experiment" with their guns. I have never had any problems nor have I blown up any guns and I started shooting PPC in 1975 and IPSC in 1988. One must take caution whenever you develop any handloads for any gun and starting off with "known" information is better than winging it. The following .38 Colt Short load data has worked for me in all 6 of my .357 Revos for more that a decade. .38 Colt Short Starline Brass, Montana Gold .355 (9MM) 130 gr RN bullet, 4.2 gr Universal Clays, 100 Federal Primer, at 1.100" OAL with a tight crimp .0002-.0004 This is an accurate IPSC load and is 1135 fps from a S&W 627 5" bbl

[DougCarden]

I dont have the time in like Bill does, but in the few years I have been tweaking the Short Colt I would agree with his information.

My goal when dicking around with the short colt started when I went to the "new" internet gun site called "shooters.com". A dear friend saw the future and started that, and I am grateful for him showing me the way to learn and share information.

Yes, I was told that you couldnt get accuracy with the short colt. That just pissed me off, and sent me off to experiment. I knew from from working with 9x19 that is could be an accurate round, but you had to find what tweaks you needed. I scoured loading manuals and found what little I could on it. My goal was 2in at 25yds, which would be sufficient for any steel game I play and for ICORE as well.

I used 147-150gr bullets and heavier as I needed a true roundnose bullet for reloading under stress and the more bearing surface would stabilize the bullet better. The gun I was loading for at the time was a 8 shot .357 with a full cylinder with a custom barrel dia. .3565. I loaded up over a dozen test loads and spent days at the range just shooting groups on paperplates with a paster in the middle at 25yds off sandbags. Pretty scientific but it worked.

I had a load that would do around a circular 2in group with some bullet clusters with 3 powders, and one stood out head and shoulders above the rest. It was cool to look at the targets and see them shrink down with the different powders. I knew from my pin shooting days that due to variations in cylinder charge holes I would have some fliers, and was too damn lazy to find the one charge hole that was most accurate and shoot every round through it.

Once I tweaked the load, I was estatic and loaded them up and then I wanted more accuracy. I talked around and again was told that I wouldnt get it to shoot at 50yds.......That pissed me off.......

I then sent my gun to my gunsmith and told him to cut the cylinder back to short colt length, put on a 6in in barrel with a .355 diameter barrel, and do the taylor throat on it, and it would shoot.

He hemmed and hawed......called me before he cut the cylinder......Told him to just do it.......

The gun shoots under 2in at 50 and into one hole at 25yds. My stock full cylinder .357 gun with a 6in barrel which is around .3565 does around 2in at 25yds and 4-4.5 at 50yds, depending on the day and phase of the moon.....

I then got cheap when I saw brass prices skyrocket, and borrowed a trimmer and found that remington nickel 38 special brass fit my old 8 shot moons best. I then trimmed a pile and quit when I hit 170, and By GOD I will never trim pistol brass again, ever!

I found the the inner diameter of the brass was thicker than the Starline short colts, and had a pretty good buldge when I loaded them, and had to use a Lee factory Taper crimp die to squeeze them down to fit in the guns. Too much work and a pain in the butt. Save your money and buy the Starline brass, it lasts forever and if you use Moonclips you will never loose them!

I use 9x19 data and the only caveat I can give you is to be careful with heavy bullets and fast powder. Although CLAYS and Nitro 100 shoot really well with 147-150grain bullets and have the right recoil signature, you are dancing on the fine line. I recommend VV 310 due to it having a linear pressure curve which is predictable. It will tell you that you are approaching high pressure well before you are there when working a load up. The other powders sneak up on you quick. Quick lesson, if your brass has a hard time ejecting, you are in bad territory with that load and go back down. I know some cylinders were blown up with Unique and 158gr bullets...(no, not me....I listened to them before I tried it...)

Once I found a load that was accurate and soft in recoil I havent tried any other combos. I shot some 115gr bullets at 25 yds and could clean the plate rack, but didnt like it compared to my heavy bullet loads. There is nothing wrong with using .355 bullets in the guns, but realize your accuracy is going to suffer unless you barrel is set up for those bullets.

Sorry for the long dissertation but this is something I acutally know something about, and want to share it. That is how I have learned....

Good luck, you are at the right place to learn.

DougC

[underlug]

I dont have the time in like Bill does, but in the few years I have been tweaking the Short Colt I would agree with his information.

My goal when dicking around with the short colt started when I went to the "new" internet gun site called "shooters.com". A dear friend saw the future and started that, and I am grateful for him showing me the way to learn and share information.

Yes, I was told that you couldnt get accuracy with the short colt. That just pissed me off, and sent me off to experiment. I knew from from working with 9x19 that is could be an accurate round, but you had to find what tweaks you needed. I scoured loading manuals and found what little I could on it. My goal was 2in at 25yds, which would be sufficient for any steel game I play and for ICORE as well.

I used 147-150gr bullets and heavier as I needed a true roundnose bullet for reloading under stress and the more bearing surface would stabilize the bullet better. The gun I was loading for at the time was a 8 shot .357 with a full cylinder with a custom barrel dia. .3565. I loaded up over a dozen test loads and spent days at the range just shooting groups on paperplates with a paster in the middle at 25yds off sandbags. Pretty scientific but it worked.

I had a load that would do around a circular 2in group with some bullet clusters with 3 powders, and one stood out head and shoulders above the rest. It was cool to look at the targets and see them shrink down with the different powders. I knew from my pin shooting days that due to variations in cylinder charge holes I would have some fliers, and was too damn lazy to find the one charge hole that was most accurate and shoot every round through it.

Once I tweaked the load, I was estatic and loaded them up and then I wanted more accuracy. I talked around and again was told that I wouldnt get it to shoot at 50yds.......That pissed me off.......

I then sent my gun to my gunsmith and told him to cut the cylinder back to short colt length, put on a 6in in barrel with a .355 diameter barrel, and do the taylor throat on it, and it would shoot.

He hemmed and hawed......called me before he cut the cylinder......Told him to just do it.......

The gun shoots under 2in at 50 and into one hole at 25yds. My stock full cylinder .357 gun with a 6in barrel which is around .3565 does around 2in at 25yds and 4-4.5 at 50yds, depending on the day and phase of the moon.....

I then got cheap when I saw brass prices skyrocket, and borrowed a trimmer and found that remington nickel 38 special brass fit my old 8 shot moons best. I then trimmed a pile and quit when I hit 170, and By GOD I will never trim pistol brass again, ever!

I found the the inner diameter of the brass was thicker than the Starline short colts, and had a pretty good buldge when I loaded them, and had to use a Lee factory Taper crimp die to squeeze them down to fit in the guns. Too much work and a pain in the butt. Save your money and buy the Starline brass, it lasts forever and if you use Moonclips you will never loose them!

I use 9x19 data and the only caveat I can give you is to be careful with heavy bullets and fast powder. Although CLAYS and Nitro 100 shoot really well with 147-150grain bullets and have the right recoil signature, you are dancing on the fine line. I recommend VV 310 due to it having a linear pressure curve which is predictable. It will tell you that you are approaching high pressure well before you are there when working a load up. The other powders sneak up on you quick. Quick lesson, if your brass has a hard time ejecting, you are in bad territory with that load and go back down. I know some cylinders were blown up with Unique and 158gr bullets...(no, not me....I listened to them before I tried it...)

Once I found a load that was accurate and soft in recoil I havent tried any other combos. I shot some 115gr bullets at 25 yds and could clean the plate rack, but didnt like it compared to my heavy bullet loads. There is nothing wrong with using .355 bullets in the guns, but realize your accuracy is going to suffer unless you barrel is set up for those bullets.

Sorry for the long dissertation but this is something I acutally know something about, and want to share it. That is how I have learned....

Good luck, you are at the right place to learn.

DougC

I just want to thank Bill and Doug for the summaries. You are saving people a ton of work by sharing your experience

[Carmoney]

Yep. Good info here. Makes my little response seem so......inadequate!

[DougCarden]

Guys, long week at work and I use this forum to get my head straight.....so I apologize for the dissertation. I do hope it helps people keep from making the mistakes I did.........

See ya,

DougC

[JamesLovesJammie]

Thanks for all the quick replies!

Actually, I would prefer a long, in depth post to anything else. I am by no means new to reloading, but there just isn't a lot of data out there for an outdated...call it obsolete cartridge. My "Cartridges of the World, 9th edition" has the .38 short and long colt in the same paragraph and the only listing is a factory load with 770 fps with a 150 lead bullet. Not very helpful. Sierra and Lee loading manuals don't even list it.

Doug, I also started on shooters.com. That was the first gun forum that I began to frequent. I really miss that site. I have about 700 pages of information I printed out on topics that interested me at the time. I was in college, and paper and printing was free. I probably learned more from that site that I did in college!

Bill, thanks for the info! I'll probably pick up some powder this weekend!

Carmoney, I've been reading quite a few posts and I thank you for all the informative replies! You kept me from wasting money on a C&S extended firing pin!

Thanks again!

James

[underlug]

Yep. Good info here. Makes my little response seem so......inadequate!

Sorry I left you out of my post. Maybe see you at the IRC this year

[revoman]

I use the EGW 38 Special undersized sizing die to size and remove primer. Dillion 38 special powder funnel, use just enough to flare case to accept type and size bullet you are using. Lee 38 Short Colt seating die and Lee 38 Short Colt roll crimp die. You will find with the EGW undersized sizing die you will not have to crimp as much and all you are really trying to accomplish is to remove the flare. This set up has worked for me with .355 bullets to .358 bullets. Pet load 2.8 to 2.9 VV N310, seated 1.175, Federal primer with a 150 grain 38 super bullet sized .357 and .358 moly coated. The 2.9 load average 850 fps, pf 127 and the 2.8 load 825 fps, pf 123. Perfect loads for ICORE or USPSA minor. Do not go above 2.9 grains as I started to get sticky extractions and the 2.9 does not show any signs of high pressure.

http://www.betterbullets.com/products.htm

This is where I get my bullets and I do my own moly coat as Roger can send them lubed or non-lubed. This is all done on my Dillon 650.

Just my 2 cents