Man v Man Shootoff

[joseywales]

We are considering running a side-match Man on Man shootoff after one of our local matches, and are wondering about the overall timing of the event.

16 shooters, J-bracket double-elimination, best 2 of 3 runs per "BOUT" between competitors.

For each competitor, we will have 5 static steel, and a cross-over popper.

To save reset time, I thought we would set the steel to just ring/not fall, and then have just the cross-over popper's set to fall.

Repaint steel after each 2 of 3 BOUT.

I'm guessing that this would take about 90 minutes to run the 16 shooters.

Those of you with some experience in running these, am I in-the-ballpark, way-offbase, or get-a-life-dude regarding the timing?

Suggestions welcome.

[AlamoShooter]

My club used to have a shoot like that once a year as a traditional September shoot, IF you can do it in 3hrs you are moving the shooters fast. 25 shooters with some of them shooting two guns= rev and auto the event was 4 to 5hrs long

With double elimination

Our targets had a mix of falling and stationary =six targets per side / only five for rev. two or three would fall per side

Allways had over lapping stop plates and the far out side plate as falling putting one more that fell was nice too.

When we "Ran" out to reset we only had to stop at two or three plates and not all six. have to have extra sets of eyes on each bank to make certain of hits befroe the stop plate is hit.

With Ted Bonnet doing his shoot we don't do the Man On Man for the past several years. Life is much easyer

Edited January 4, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[Flexmoney]

What is killer is resetting between runs. After a while...the same two guys get tired of doing it.

The best that I have seen has been at the Rolla range...MO. Fall Classic.

They probably had 50-70+ shooters.

Up to 10 poppers per shooter (M & GM has to shoot all 10, A-class = 9 poppers, B-class = 8 poppers and so on). I think they took one popper away for shooting iron sights too.

Single elimination. One run.

(I've tried double elimination and also best of 3...HUGE time killers. Not recommended.)

Gotta have good steel. Gotta.

[joseywales]

Wow. Glad I asked.

I had hoped that we could eliminate much of the reset time by making all of the steel 'ring-only' - except the cross-over poppers - yet that still requires someone to make the trip downrange 10yds to reset the cross-over poppers for each run.

If we use 16 shooters, sounds like we should go single-elimination, 1 run each.

If we use 8 shooters, we could try double-elimination, 1 run each.

Championship round would be best 2 of 3 for both cases.

Thanks for the reality-check.

[Flexmoney]

You won't be able to score "ring only" as two shooter tear it up. The action is too fast.

They ran self-resetting poppers at the Nationals one year. Even though it took a moment for those to reset, they still kinda sucked.

If it's not knock-down steel I would shy away.

Best of 3 for the final is good.

[joseywales]

We use "ring-only" at our monthly steel matches, but we only have one shooter/one RO.

All of our steel is static, and the runs can be blistering fast with some shooters.

My thinking was to have two RO's - one to monitor each shooter for safety & hit confirmation.

However, I can see that a MvM shootoff would be much different - as it's a "lose 1 and you're done" competition, vs. "5 runs, drop your worst one".

"Ring-only" leaves subjectivity in the mix - "Hey, I hit that one" / "No you didn't...now go sit down"

One or two of those "discussions", and it probably negates the "time savings" achieved by not having to reset all the steel.

[BSeevers]

Ring only? with 2 fast Open M's shooting?

I don't think it would work out fairly.

I have been to some "subjective" steel matches and see people(RO's) fail calling misses, often. I see the puff of dirt in the backstop, they didn't. Falling is the only fair way. Or paint it every time. On a man on man shoot-off

Edited January 4, 2008 by BSeevers

[NMBOpen]

American Handgunner World Shootoff uses combination - some stages are plate racks, some are field courses with poppers/colt speed plates/split poppers. Plate racks and crossovers have rope to avoid downrange time. Starter in the center has a bicycle horn to start, and there is an RO for each shooter. Field courses normally have some local kids to help with resetting steel. Plate racks have a variety of target shapes.

[Catfish]

Don't forget the Stockton factor!! You know that will add at least 30 minutes to the finish time.

[Ron Ankeny]

I have been to some "subjective" steel matches and see people(RO's) fail calling misses, often. I see the puff of dirt in the backstop, they didn't. Falling is the only fair way. Or paint it every time. On a man on man shoot-off

I agree. Paint between shooters or reactive steel, down to score.

[Flexmoney]

We use "ring-only" at our monthly steel matches, but we only have one shooter/one RO.

All of our steel is static, and the runs can be blistering fast with some shooters.

My thinking was to have two RO's - one to monitor each shooter for safety & hit confirmation.

However, I can see that a MvM shootoff would be much different - as it's a "lose 1 and you're done" competition, vs. "5 runs, drop your worst one".

"Ring-only" leaves subjectivity in the mix - "Hey, I hit that one" / "No you didn't...now go sit down"

One or two of those "discussions", and it probably negates the "time savings" achieved by not having to reset all the steel.

We use ring-only at our monthly Steel Challenge matches too. It's not the same thing as shoot-off. (painting between might work...make sure to paint the posts)

I just was at a shoot-offs the other night. Indoor, bowling pins, .22 rimfire. The winner was the shooter whose last pin hit the ground first. We had trouble calling that...just looking for the last pin.

Try some stuff out...see how it goes.

[sweetback]

I borrowed this idea from a club in CONN.

Two plate racks (6) each like at the M vs M handgunner shootoff .

Paint the 2 inner plates red or blaze orange. these are the stop plates.

plate rack is reset with rope. Stop plates are watched by 2 witnesses.

If it is to close to call switch sides and give reshoot, untill there is a definite

winner. the shooters names are picked from a hat/box at random.

5 losses and your out.You shoot that bout win or lose your name is put back in another box

and drawn again when everybody has shot that round. If a stock gun shooter draws a

open gun shooter he starts with gun on bench and only has to knock down 4+ stop plate.

while the open gun shooter has to start from surrender and knock down 6 plates.

There is no walking to reset plates. Can be painted every 5th or 6th bout.

ty-3853

[Chuck Anderson]

16 shooters, double elimination with best 3/5 for the finals works out to a max of 47 runs, assuming no reshoots. Figure the best you're going to do if any reset at all is involved is 3 min per run avg with a max of 4 min. avg. Works out to 141-188 minutes. That's going to be a minimum of fuss with good helpers and everyone coming to the line ready to go when they're supposed to. About the only way I've seen the shootoff's work well is at a range like Frank Garcia's where they have a Pneumatic reset steel shootoff bay. And even that seems to drag on forever.

[Flexmoney]

Stop plates are watched by 2 witnesses.

If it is to close to call switch sides and give reshoot, untill there is a definite

winner.

Hmmm...we ran the pin match and had 3 guys spotting. We went with the best of 3 on the call. (our finals ended with a reshoot...I called a winner, and two others call a tie).

Maybe the 2 person witness would be better?

Go with crossing stop plates and there is no question.

[Flexmoney]

16 shooters, double elimination with best 3/5 for the finals works out to a max of 47 runs, assuming no reshoots. Figure the best you're going to do if any reset at all is involved is 3 min per run avg with a max of 4 min. avg. Works out to 141-188 minutes. That's going to be a minimum of fuss with good helpers and everyone coming to the line ready to go when they're supposed to. About the only way I've seen the shootoff's work well is at a range like Frank Garcia's where they have a Pneumatic reset steel shootoff bay. And even that seems to drag on forever.

I brought a guy in that had an air resetting setup one year for the Ohio match. It was smokin'. He had four positions. His stop plates were tied into an indicator system. First plate down would light an indicator lamp to tell who won. He had two five plate plate racks (high and low), two poppers (each side of the plate racks) and the stop plate.

(I kinda like shoot-offs )

[steel1212]

Maybe I missed it, but if you have 2 plate racks....why not 7 steel, 6 plates and a pair of crossing poppers? Nobody will have to call that. If you have revo shooters then drop one of the plates....