LAMR with a Series 70 1911

[STUGOTSIG]

I have had an ongoing debate with my dad about slingshotting vs. trigger press/slide release (from slide lock) on the older 70 Series 1991 Colt.

He showed me a description of how the original 1911 was to be brought into battery. From slide lock, press the trigger, engage slide release, release trigger press.

I know on a cold range that we run, this would definately qualify as a DQ on LAMR. Even from slide forward, hammer down, and slingshotting into battery, the minute the finger goes into the trigger well at LAMR, the "TRIGGER!" is violated.

Question...Am I doing any harm to my Series 70 1911 Colt by slingshotting (only) on the LAMR Command?

[GentlemanJim]

YOU will get DQed no finger on trigger when loading!!

That is an old bullseye trick used when the trigger has been set WAY to low for normal use.

It would prevent hammer follow and beating the hammer spurs on the sear.

But is not considered a safe practice in our game

Jim

It can hurt the gun only if you do it on an empty chamber

Edited October 25, 2007 by GentlemanJim

[moose]

YOU will get DQed no finger on trigger when loading!!

It can hurt the gun only if you do it on an empty chamber

+1

[tightloop]

As Jim said, that technique is from the old days when guys who used to have guns built as "softball" guns, that is, 230 gr stuff, but moving at about 650 fps....and the trigger pull was very light about a pound...this was B4 the knowledge of how to have a one pound trigger that was reliable...you did anything to keep the hammer hooks from taking a beating...Not a good idea then or now...

[STUGOTSIG]

Thanks for the input(s) guys!

[oddjob]

I remember at a major match one of the fellas did that at LAMR (it was also the first day, first shot and last shot he fired). "Bang" and he walked around and video taped his friends for two days. R/O couldn't react fast enough.

[wgnoyes]

Well..... I've got a 45 in the safe that I've had for 21 years (original 70 series) with the same trigger group in it now it that Lou Clark put in it back then and it's still a crisp 3 pounds and I was taught when I got the gun to pin the trigger when loading. My personal opinion, the practice became unsafe only when we changed the rulebook to say it was unsafe. But that's just my opinion and the rulebook says otherwise and that's how we play now, so okay!

[Crusher]

What is it when a bullseye gun goes bang on the "with 5 rounds load" command ..................OH yea "ALIBI"

Edited October 28, 2007 by Crusher

[Derek45]

That was the way back before quality match trigger parts were available. Guys were trying to get a great trigger job with USGI parts. The steel USGI trigger was heavy enough to possibly inertia fire. Holding the trigger back prevented it.

If your "series 70" has quality new match grade trigger guts, tuned and installed by a 1911 smith, then you should have no problems.

[Kingman]

when we did that it was for one reason. Our trigger was excessively light. I mean well under a pound. My .22 is set at 14 oz. and that registers. My .45 does not register on my scale. So yeh I pin the trigger, but that gun was built for Perry and not USPSA.

that trick stemmed from old wives stories and people that really did not know what to do with GI parts as mentioned above. i was at Perry in 86 as Les Bear worked for springfield and was trying to start changing things.

[Dave Gundry]

With the slide locked back, hold the trigger, drop the slide.... Isn't that EXACTLY (mechanically) the same as pulling and holding the trigger on a loaded gun? As in not releasing the trigger before the slide returns to battery? Something that a lot (most?) of people do while normally shooting anyway??? If I'm not mistaken, then if a gun can't handle that, you'll have a full auto situation potentially...

[Radical Precision Designs]

With the slide locked back, hold the trigger, drop the slide.... Isn't that EXACTLY (mechanically) the same as pulling and holding the trigger on a loaded gun? As in not releasing the trigger before the slide returns to battery? Something that a lot (most?) of people do while normally shooting anyway??? If I'm not mistaken, then if a gun can't handle that, you'll have a full auto situation potentially...

During a normal firing cycle, after a shot was taken the trigger indeed is back as the slide moves back to eject and load a fresh round as it moves forward. Then the trigger is released and pressed again to initiate another semi-auto firing cycle.

While the trigger is held back with the slide locked in place by the slide stop, the disconector is doing its stuff that gave it the name "disconnector". After the slide moves forward, so long as you are holding that trigger back that trigger bow continues to be "disconnected" untill it is allowed to move forward and allow the disconnector to re-engage the proper position between the trigger bow and the sear. This is 1911 "101" reasoning. Having an unsafe sear spring setting can still allow the hammer to drop in spite of the disconnector doing its job, because the slide's inertia (mass and harmonics) can dislodge an improperly resetting hammer/sear engagement due to poor geometry or insuficient sear spring force.

Pining/pinching the trigger in its forward position as the slide is released is done for a different mechanical happening: trigger bounce. Trigger bounce that sets off a cartridge is the result of a trigger/disconector (middle leaf) insuficiency not always/necessarily in a light trigger set up.

Actual tolerances in both instances can tip the scale for a dangerous malfunction in either case.

So while keeping the trigger back as you release the slide forward may not be necessarily dangerous, it could be if there was any kind of finger movement that went back and forth. While pinching the trigger pad sideways against the frame to eliminate any trigger bounce might be a great idea on super light triggers, the RO indeed will kick your ass from the firing line if he/she sees your finger anywhere within the trigger guard whether pulling or pinching that trigger.

The thing to do is to talk to the 'smith that built your gun, or the guy you bought it from, about these little idyosincracies and behaviour of your "finely" tuned blaster and know its limitations. You will rarely see a shooter with a "sub 1 lb." trigger letting it go from slide lock or using a very heavy recoil spring that will jar the hell out of it when it slams into battery.

Colt came with their Gold Cup sear and "sear assist assembly" to help in those early days when tolerances were not as nice as those we enjoy today. But that's another story. On the meantime ... please do not beat up your nice, finely tuned blasters unnecessarily !!!

Edited October 29, 2007 by Radical Precision Designs

[STUGOTSIG]

Sorry...Boo Boo

Edited November 1, 2007 by STUGOTSIG

[Rotwang]

What is it when a bullseye gun goes bang on the "with 5 rounds load" command ..................OH yea "ALIBI"

Actually, you're down 10 points on that target. And you'll be getting some extra attention for the range people.

[yoshidaex]

During a normal firing cycle, after a shot was taken the trigger indeed is back as the slide moves back to eject and load a fresh round as it moves forward. Then the trigger is released and pressed again to initiate another semi-auto firing cycle.

While the trigger is held back with the slide locked in place by the slide stop, the disconector is doing its stuff that gave it the name "disconnector". After the slide moves forward, so long as you are holding that trigger back that trigger bow continues to be "disconnected" untill it is allowed to move forward and allow the disconnector to re-engage the proper position between the trigger bow and the sear. This is 1911 "101" reasoning. Having an unsafe sear spring setting can still allow the hammer to drop in spite of the disconnector doing its job, because the slide's inertia (mass and harmonics) can dislodge an improperly resetting hammer/sear engagement due to poor geometry or insuficient sear spring force.

Pining/pinching the trigger in its forward position as the slide is released is done for a different mechanical happening: trigger bounce. Trigger bounce that sets off a cartridge is the result of a trigger/disconector (middle leaf) insuficiency not always/necessarily in a light trigger set up.

Actual tolerances in both instances can tip the scale for a dangerous malfunction in either case.

So while keeping the trigger back as you release the slide forward may not be necessarily dangerous, it could be if there was any kind of finger movement that went back and forth. While pinching the trigger pad sideways against the frame to eliminate any trigger bounce might be a great idea on super light triggers, the RO indeed will kick your ass from the firing line if he/she sees your finger anywhere within the trigger guard whether pulling or pinching that trigger.

The thing to do is to talk to the 'smith that built your gun, or the guy you bought it from, about these little idyosincracies and behaviour of your "finely" tuned blaster and know its limitations. You will rarely see a shooter with a "sub 1 lb." trigger letting it go from slide lock or using a very heavy recoil spring that will jar the hell out of it when it slams into battery.

Colt came with their Gold Cup sear and "sear assist assembly" to help in those early days when tolerances were not as nice as those we enjoy today. But that's another story. On the meantime ... please do not beat up your nice, finely tuned blasters unnecessarily !!!

Awesome explanation Venry. So what do you think when shooters at the end of their run, they pop their chambered round out to show clear? cha-ching! another trigger job for me to do