Distracted By Loud People While Shooting

[A33435]

This is what happened, i would like your opinion or thoughts about it.

We are with 4 shooters in an indoor range. There are 2 stages to be shot hotrange.

It is the end of a 2 days match and we are the last shooters in this match.

All other shooters and RO's are already in the canteen.

So we are with 4 shooters and 5 people range personel, all certified NROA/IROA members

I shoot the first stage and proceed to the other.

After preparing myself and the gun for the upcoming longcourse the stage i already shot

is being scored.

When i get the beep i first shoot 4 targets from startposition and move to the next shooting position.

Then in my experience i hear a shout that looks like STOP. Immediately i stop, holding gun at buckle height and downrange.

Look over my shoulder and wait for the unload command.

I don't get the command and the scoring RO on the former stage looks at me.

I decide to shoot the stage futher and after finishing it, before time and score could be told

i ask if the RO saw i was obviously distracted by the loud calling/screaming of the range personel.

He says immediately i don't get a reshoot because for every shooter this was the same.

I did not protest because i had the feeling this could not be very succesfull.

Both shooters and RO's were tired after this long match i can understand

that in their enthusiasm the match was soon ending the RO's were a little playful.

But in my experience i clearly heart "STOP", what if i just stopped and didn't proceed?

Now i concluded that i must have misheart this and proceeded after 3(?) seconds.

I was not shooting very bad on this stage so that was sure not the reason to claim a reshoot.

With the timedelay i managed to end 19th place out of 124 limited shooters.

Everyone else ever saw something similar or experienced this?

Greetings

Adrie

[lynn jones]

ardie,

if you think you heard "stop", you had the correct response. i would have told the RO i heard "stop", and i want a reshoot.

lynn jones

[A33435]

Yes, i told him lynn , after finishing the stage......

and i think it should be obvious for him because in practice i did stop.

Now i am thinking did i make the wrong decision by proceeding and asking afterwards.

Thusfar i never had or wanted to claim a reshoot.

If i stop in the middle of a stage and start discusion with the RO i heart STOP

and then he also says i don't get a reshoot this stage would heve been blown entirely.

Thankx for your opinion

[Vince Pinto]

Adrie,

While I sympathise with your problem, stopping under those circumstances does not entitle you to a reshoot.

In your case, you stopped because you genuinely believed you were told to stop by the RO, but what about the next guy who only stops because he has 2 No Shoots and he's looking for an excuse for a reshoot?

And if you suggest the RO should use his discretion, then the RO opens himself up to accusations of favoritism.

You did the right thing by finishing the COF. If you had stopped, the targets you did not shoot at would get a procedural penalty each plus the appropriate number of misses.

[A33435]

I suspected that you would say this Vince and i can agree with this.

For an RO it is bad thing for opening himself up to accusations of favoritism.

Recently your RD Kees wrote a word about the subject of claiming a reshoot

when a target/penalty isn't patched or they didn't put up the steel etc.

The one big advice he gave was to always end the course of fire

and complain afterwards.

That was in my mind at that moment but also that there could be

a good reason to give a reshoot.

What if the next time a spectator, or another shooter e.g. makes a call or

shouts to another something that sounds like 'STOP' ?

In my opinion it could be fare in certain cases to get a reshoot.

[lynn jones]

vince is correct as usual, but, you could still try for a reshoot. i would.

lynn (i stopped) jones

[Flexmoney]

Section 8.6 deals with "Assistance or Interference"

[Vince Pinto]

FYI, here are the salient facts of an arbitration at the 2002 Philippine Nationals, which was chaired by IPSC President Nick Alexakos.

A serious contender for the Open Division title was halfway through what was, by all accounts, a fantastically smooth and accurate attempt at a COF when his sponsor (standing in the spectator area), yelled in a loud booming voice:

"GO, JOE, GO" (or maybe it was "Run, Forrest, Run"?)

Anyway Joe stopped because he thought the RO said something but, when Joe saw the RO just standing there holding the timer, Joe realised he was mistaken, so he (correctly) finished the COF. Sadly the pause cost his something like 5 seconds on what should have been a 15 second stage at his level, and it cost him the match (he finished a close 3rd).

After the COF was finished, the competitor appealed to arbitration for a reshoot, claiming interference. The committee (an American, a Filipino and yours truly), ruled unanimously that the competitor was not entitled to a reshoot under the rules (Section 8.6).

Moreover we saw no need to recommend changing the rule, for the reasons I've given (e.g. a team manager could collude to yell out when he sees his team member hit a few no-shoots).

Of course, as shooters ourselves, our heart went out to the competitor, but "dem's the breaks". If somebody can find a better solution, please write a rule (a whole rule covering all possibilities), and we'll certainly consider it.

BTW, simply saying "It sucks" is not a rule .............

[A33435]

After reading the story of this philippine shooter i have the cold comfort i wasn't the first one who experienced this.

The story is almost an exact copy of mine.

In my case i think 3 secondes delay is a good acception. It costed me about 15 stagepoints

(you can see stageresults of stage 14 in level III match

http://www.s-c-w.net/schwaigertrophy/schwa...aigertrophy.htm )

Another cold comfort, in the overall match result i would not move up a place.

Like i said to Skywalker overthere, just take every experience with you to the next match.

Greetings

Adrie

[Skywalker]

Adrie,

I didn't know this had happened to you, and I'm really sorry about it, because you otherwise shot a good match.

I too think you took the right decision when stopped: if you genuinely heard a "STOP" shout, you had to stop.

Unfortunately, the re-shoot subject is something that (in this case) falls under the complete perception and judgement of the RO.

It is really similar to what happens in Football (ok, soccer for those of you still thinking football is actually played with an oval ball and not touching it with feet): if you are in the field goal area, ready to score a goal for your team, and you get tricked by a defendant who commits a foul, you get what you deserve (a penalty in this case, or a re-shoot in your) only if the referee has noticed the unlegal action, otherwise not.

I know, it is unfair, as it was in your case, but we have to accept that the judge, referee, range officer, is human (at least some of them) and can take wrong decisions, wether in good or bad faith.

What I can say is you acted in the correct way: your behaviour was at least sportsmanlike.

Yeah, it is small mercy, I know, and it won't bring you any good to your final result; but I am one of those who thinks that self-respect, as well as the respect we get from friends, acquaintance or even bystanders is more important than anything else.

Well done, Adrie.

[Paul B]

This thread has brought up some very interesting points and I think Vince's response is correct even though at some gut level it smacks of being unfair.

It does bring up another discussion point, though, about the RO coaching the shooter through a stage. Right now it's legal for the RO to holler all kinds of things at a shooter like "muzzle," "trigger," or "finger," etc. This is overtly for safety purposes and a whole school of RO's have been schooled to do this.

Well through ear protection and even double ear protection, loud yelling from the RO would certainly make me stop or hesitate on the course when truly no rule has been broken. There is no rule about "almost a DQ." If an offense has been committed then stop the competitor and apply the DQ.

Just like when the range commands sometimes get additional verbage, trying to correct shooter behavior as they go through the stage becomes unfair and probably unsafe for the competitor. The range commands should be adhered to as strictly as possible and we should limit what we yell at a competitor during a course of fire to "stop."

[A33435]

Skywalker i think because of the (acceptable in my revieuw) 80 minutes delay in the match schedule,

the hungarian shooters from my squad got the stagebriefing together with your squad to gain some time.

So they shot first

My 2 teammates and the greek shooter shot this stage when you were already in the hotel i guess.

Thankx for the good words

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

The matter you raise about an RO giving warnings during a COF is a "no win" situation. If the RO yells "Muzzle" in an effort to prevent you from getting a DQ, his intention is to assist you. Of course some competitors are grateful for such warnings while others consider them intrusive and distracting.

Solution? If the COF is one where you think it's possible the angles of fire may cause you to come close to the limit thereby encouraging the RO to issue warnings, when it's your turn to shoot, simply ask the RO not to issue warnings.

I'm sure a good RO will be happy to oblige, and he'll only act if you actually break 90 degrees or commit another safety infraction.

As an anecdote, there used to be a shooter in Thailand who had only half of the forefinger on his strong hand so, if the RO was unaware, he would always get "Finger" calls during movement. Eventually he got into the habit of showing his stubby digit to the RO just before LAMR. Problem solved.

Ditto if you intend to do something unusual after the start signal or during the COF. If you warn the RO before you start, he won't be surprised and, more importantly, if he thinks your intentions are not allowed under the rules, it's better to get the matter resolved before you do it, rather than to take your chances later at an Arbitration.

The RO is there to assist you, and giving him relevant information will help him do his job. Communicate!

[3quartertime]

I have several replies here and of course I adhere to the expertise of my friend Vince.

First, There was no reshoot BECAUSE you continued with the COF. As an RO the first and only thing I should say is STOP. If you don't stop I should physically make the situation safe if possible. When you heard stop (or thought you did) you should stop and safely look at the RO. Arbitration should decide the out come. I would never want a shooter ingoring a STOP command from me. Physical interaction can be very dangerous. (this comes from me giving the STOP command but needing to place my hand on the shooters shoulder and the shooter turning towards me with gun in hand!!!)

Second, Coaching is coaching. I don't normally talk to a shooter before, during or after a COF, but if I'm worried about the shooters ability to perform safely I WILL chat some. Telling a shooter to STOP is not coaching. That is a valid RO command and should be obeyed.

Third, Matches are very loud and the sounds may be distracting. This is the job of the RO to make sure he is in control of the situation. If the shooter is uneasy about the distracting sounds that are happening HE should tell the RO what he wants BEFORE agreeing to perform. The 'Are You Ready' command is the shooters response to his responsiblity toward the COF. After that he is at fault for mistakes.

My .02

[Vince Pinto]

James,

Whoa. Hold your horses, dude. There are situations where you can get indeed a reshoot, even after you've finished the COF (e.g. a popper challenge which later proves in your favour).

(Shooting tip) Having said that, I personally prefer to keep shooting the popper until it goes down because if the popper was jammed, the first shot will generally loosen the impediment, so the calibration will work, and you'll be given a miss. This is far more costly than the extra nanosecond it takes for a second shot.

The only time you should stop during a COF is when:

1) The RO commands you to stop;

2) A pepper popper has not been reset from the previous competitor;

3) A moving target fails to move after the activator has been properly activated;

4) A safety issue (see below).

With some safety issues, such as a squib load or personal injury, you're not entitled to a reshoot. In other cases, such as seeing someone still downrange, you will be entitled to a reshoot after the RO gets 50 lashes from the cat o' nine tails.

If you "think" you heard the RO shout "Stop" and he didn't, this is not grounds for a reshoot and an experienced team of arbitrators are very unlikely to order a reshoot.

As you correctly state, shooting ranges are noisy places, so you need to have your wits about you. If you think you hear "Stop", check quickly with the RO and, if he just gives you a blank stare, keep shooting.

[Flexmoney]

In big golf matches, they have guys holding up signs that say "Quite". I am thinking about adding that to the back-side of the clip-boards.

Can't hurt. And it re-enforces that the shooter needs some respect during his/her run.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

If that doesn't work, try the word "Quiet".

Of course in Australia they have "STFU" on the back of their clipboards, which stands for "Shut The ?? Up"

[Flexmoney]