Class 99-58

[JThompson]

Okay, what's to prevent someone from stacking a couple shots each on the first go and then reloading and just capping 12 as fast as you can?

From the description I don't see where you couldn't do just that...?

[noidlight]

Okay, what's to prevent someone from stacking a couple shots each on the first go and then reloading and just capping 12 as fast as you can?

From the description I don't see where you couldn't do just that...?

wouldn't that constitute a proceedural? It says 1 round each target, reload, 1 round each

[wide45]

We have a forum for discussion of each classifier.

99-58 is here;

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3602

Your plan came up, not much interest.

[JThompson]

We have a forum for discussion of each classifier.

99-58 is here;

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3602

Your plan came up, not much interest.

Thanks for the link... it wasn't a plan just an observation.

[Micah]

I tried that the first time that I shot it last year...

...it was a loser all around! Just get your A's and move on to a more interesting stage in the match

[JThompson]

I tried that the first time that I shot it last year...

...it was a loser all around! Just get your A's and move on to a more interesting stage in the match

Roger

[Chris Keen]

[WARNING] - BRUTAL TRUTH AHEAD -

Classifiers are meant to be shot as written. 99 times out of 100 if you just shoot it the way it was intended to be shot - you will end up with a great score. Of course you will need to shoot as many points as possible. I've rarely seen a classifier shot differently than it was intended, that amounted to a better score.

Ironically if you try and game a field course, you need to be mentally prepared to accept crushing defeat, as well as the potential victory. This can be a hard pill to swallow. I learned this the hard way at Nationals this year on the "I Hate Drop-Turners" stage. I tried to game the stage and skipped the drop-turners altogether. Now that everything is said and done, I know that the stage points I lost by doing so may very well be the points I needed to win A class. Too late to worry about it now. I have to live & learn from mistakes like that.

And while most classifiers are 60 points ..... there are also some that are 90, 100, or 120 points. That's some serious points to be lost, should you decide to chance a bit of "trickery". But, remember - you can also lose a big match by a very small margin.

[JThompson]

Thanks Chris,

I was using the board for sounding... I went in today and checked my sights for the match tomorrow. I set up something like it, and shot it both ways. I was faster shooting it as written and had better hits. I just shot the headshots on all the targets. I didn't have to go up and down and it kept me farther from the no-shoots. I was slow, but didn't much care.

It looks to me like this classifier is ruff... I ran it like 9.4 and that is just barely B class???

[XRe]

Its a Comstock course of fire - so, you are able to fire more than one shot at each target on each string. The thought behind doing two on each, reload dump six in the berm is that you can somehow shoot an unaimed Bill Drill + 6 splits on targets faster than you can index five times. Even with slow indexes, that's a losing bet.

[JThompson]

Its a Comstock course of fire - so, you are able to fire more than one shot at each target on each string. The thought behind doing two on each, reload dump six in the berm is that you can somehow shoot an unaimed Bill Drill + 6 splits on targets faster than you can index five times. Even with slow indexes, that's a losing bet.

Agreed.

Is it just me or is the hf on this impossible to get high enough for a good score? I've already decided to take my time with it.

Edited September 22, 2007 by JThompson

[XRe]

Clean in 6.56 (for a 9.14 HF, which would appear to be 100%). Not impossible.... In fact, I think I know how it was done.... it was an alternate to the "way its supposed to be done" and the way you proposed. Think about it.

If it was an even HF - say, like, 9.0000, or something, I'd postulate that someone pulled it out of their nether region, but.... I'm betting someone "gamed" it to get that score.... Doing it on transitions is fairly tough. I would bet that mid-7s would be a pretty sharp run if it were shot the "right" way. A second faster? Tough stuff....

[Fireant]

Yep, I've thought about the reverse of the idea here. Seems like a good idea, but be prepared for the results after that. While I was a C class limited shooter I was able to watch a local GM game a couple classifiers in a row. I shot it just like him and was rewarded with a bump upto B class when I had no business there. Save the gaming for other parts of the match.

[JThompson]

Yep, I've thought about the reverse of the idea here. Seems like a good idea, but be prepared for the results after that. While I was a C class limited shooter I was able to watch a local GM game a couple classifiers in a row. I shot it just like him and was rewarded with a bump upto B class when I had no business there. Save the gaming for other parts of the match.

I shot it as intended and slow as hell. I just barely made had a B run. Ted P shot it and was a high M on it. If that guy can't get GM on it....

Edited September 24, 2007 by JThompson

[HSMITH]

The winner would be two on the first three, reload and two on the last 3, but it takes some mighty skills to get 100% on it.

Jim, Ted shot it just like any other stage of the match, once you get a G on your card the classifier is like any another stage. He didn't 'go after it', he just didn't let anyone take match points from him on it. Yes, he is THAT good, he can stroll through a stage like that in the low to mid 90'%s.

Little stages like that with hard cover and no-shoots are PRIME places to have a disaster, in the match just shoot it to maintain and move on to somewhere you can actually get some points. That will also be representative of your skills and provide you with an accurate classification. Shoot them with a hero-or-zero approach as most do and the classification can be WAY off from where it should be.

[JThompson]

The winner would be two on the first three, reload and two on the last 3, but it takes some mighty skills to get 100% on it.

Jim, Ted shot it just like any other stage of the match, once you get a G on your card the classifier is like any another stage. He didn't 'go after it', he just didn't let anyone take match points from him on it. Yes, he is THAT good, he can stroll through a stage like that in the low to mid 90'%s.

Little stages like that with hard cover and no-shoots are PRIME places to have a disaster, in the match just shoot it to maintain and move on to somewhere you can actually get some points. That will also be representative of your skills and provide you with an accurate classification. Shoot them with a hero-or-zero approach as most do and the classification can be WAY off from where it should be.

I agree Howard, it's not that he couldn't do it, but he didn't because getting a GM score on it could mean blowing it. That's because it's a bitch of a class. All you need do is look at the hf on it. Most people shot it two classes, or very close, below there classification.

The highest Limited shooter other than Ted shot it within 1% of C. Than includes 3 Ms and 4 As. Nobody was even close to their class except Ted. That shows just how good that guy really is....

Edited September 24, 2007 by JThompson

[wide45]

The winner would be two on the first three, reload and two on the last 3,

That would be a loser.

One procedural for each target not engaged before the reload, and one procedural for each target not engaged after the reload.

Total six procedurals on a 60 point stage.

[HSMITH]

Wide, I don't think I could be assessed procedurals for that. If I missed the last three targets and landed the shots on the first three targets I can't be penalized under Comstock scoring, at least I don't think I can. As long as the reload is there and six shots are fired with each mag I am good to go IMO.

[XRe]

Wide, I don't think I could be assessed procedurals for that. If I missed the last three targets and landed the shots on the first three targets I can't be penalized under Comstock scoring, at least I don't think I can. As long as the reload is there and six shots are fired with each mag I am good to go IMO.

Bingo. Go read rule 9.4.5.3 carefully, and realize that it only applies to Virginia Count and Fixed Time. Further, you cannot penalize the shooter for PPS.... (that's Piss Poor Shooting). As long as the hits are there at the end of the CoF (ie, the shooter has fired shots at each target), and fires at least six before the reload and at least six after the reload, that's as good as you can make him do....

Technically, this should not be a Comstock course of fire, IMO....

Is 100% do-able following Howard's description? I suspect so

[wide45]

No way. It's very obvious when you shoot 2 each at 3 targets, instead of 1 each on 6.

[JThompson]

No way. It's very obvious when you shoot 2 each at 3 targets, instead of 1 each on 6.

Jay Worden was not very receptive to the idea... I spoke with him after the match. I got the impression that you might get away with it, but he was def frowning on the idea. I also got picked for chrono and passed that with a 172 and he looked at my 170mm mag and raised an eyebrow. He says, "Are these legal?" Gulp, Umm ya they are legal. I get a hmph... let's check. I'm thinking Oh shit, I used calipers, but not a jig. He goes over to the back of his truck and pulls out the jig. I hold my breath and both my STI 170s pass with the SNL base pads. One easy the other just by a hair. I finally exhale.

I think they would get less attention with the big SNL stamped on the side of them.... hmmm maybe some skate tape is called for.

Edited September 25, 2007 by JThompson

[XRe]

No way. It's very obvious when you shoot 2 each at 3 targets, instead of 1 each on 6.

Read above again and accept it. You need to understand the difference between Comstock, Virginia Count, stacking, and how the rules affect how this course of fire can be shot - not how it should be shot. "How it should be" and "within the scope of the rules" are two entirely different things, my friend

This is exactly why I say this CoF should be Virginia Count - it disallows stacking, and prevents extra shots. Otherwise, you have a couple of different situations... Its Comstock, so the competitor can make up shots as he/she sees fit - so you can't ding him for firing two at T1-3 in the first string, nor for firing two at T4-6 in the second string. The competitor engaged each target - there are holes in each on at the end of the stage, so you cannot assess FTEs for failure to engage (that is your only possible penalty to failing to shoot at a target during a given, non-Fixed Time stage). There are no misses (assuming that all 12 shots are on paper), so you cannot assess miss penalties. When the course of fire is marked Comstock, it is, in many ways, open season within the scope of the rules.

Further, the competitor can say (and extra points if with a straight face), "Gee, Mr. RO, I was trying to hit T4-6 in that first string, but apparently my shooting sucks so bad I was hitting the others.... Then, I started out trying to hit T1-3 on that second string, but I over corrected for my bad shooting on the first string, and missed those first three targets until I figured it out." He may have just butt-raped the course of fire, but there's nothing within the scope of the rules that you can do about it.... except get huffy and call him a gamer

This is exactly why it is important to understand the rules as a course designer. If the course designer intended it to be shot as you think it was intended to be shot, he should have marked it Virginia Count. Otherwise, why would he mark it Comstock, and why would HQ have left it that way for 8 years?

[XRe]

Jay Worden was not very receptive to the idea... I spoke with him after the match. I got the impression that you might get away with it, but he was def frowning on the idea.

It would definitely receive some frowning - and I would expect that Jay wouldn't flat out tell you it could be done, but.... There you have it

[HSMITH]

Would I be a 'gamer' for using the rules to leverage my ability to complete the course of fire in the least possible time or would someone that shot it as it was 'intended' be a 'slacker'?

Seems to me that the rules are there to govern the game and provide limits, not using them to maximize your hit factor just doesn't make sense. That said LOL I shot it straight up, one on each reload one on each.

[wide45]

Upon start signal, from Box A, engage T1-T6 with one round each target, perform a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage T1-T6 with one round each target.

Under Comstock scoring, you can take as many extra shots as you want, but you must engage each target both before and after the reload, as specified in the procedure.

Lie about it afterward all you want. Any good RO will figure it out, and will award the procedurals.

[XRe]

Would I be a 'gamer' for using the rules to leverage my ability to complete the course of fire in the least possible time or would someone that shot it as it was 'intended' be a 'slacker'?

Nah, apparently, you'd just be a liar!!!