Bill Schwab Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Anyone going to this match? May 2nd & 3rd in PASA I'm shooting Friday, and will be in Leatham's afternoon class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 No. Why? Lewis class system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 My thoughts exactly. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted April 5, 2003 Author Share Posted April 5, 2003 Can't we just shoot to shoot? BTW I walked away with lotsa prizes last year, they had door prizes over lunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Yeh, we can shoot to shoot, but with a substantial entry fee and a prize table I have an expectation of a fair playing field. Using the Lewis class system turns what was an excellent competition into a luck of the draw affair. You're happy because you " walked away with lotsa prizes". If that is your definition of a good match that's cool with me. I prefer a system that rewards performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 I don't get the problem, isn't there a match winner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 I won't be there because I am still boycotting Illinoise. If they'd move the match to America, I would gladly shoot it when possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Quick Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 2alpha, Just to let you know Bill’s prizes had nothing to do with luck. He finished 14th out of 192 competitors last year. So unless there was about 13 classes he finished in the top tier. SSC 2002 Results -Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 2alpha,Just to let you know Bill’s prizes had nothing to do with luck. He finished 14th out of 192 competitors last year. So unless there was about 13 classes he finished in the top tier. SSC 2002 Results -Jason I got prizes over lunch too, just for having a pulse. Really!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Smitty, Yeah, there's a match winner,,,,,Rob Leatham. He pretty much squashes everyone with a single stack. Last years 2nd place was 20 percent behind him. Thanks, H4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 My comments were not directed at Bills shooting ability or how well he placed at the match. His post seemed to indicate that he won some prizes so he's happy. My problem with the match is the Lewis classification system. For those that don't understand what basicaly happens is this. After the match is over all scores are put on sheet of paper in order of overall place of finish, then lines are drawn for each class based on whatever criteria is picked out to classify all shooters. If you happen to fall at the top of one line you are the class winner if at the bottom you're unlucky. This is luck of the draw and shouldn't be used to score a big match like this. A GM could have a bad day or gun trouble and win D class. The excuse given for using this system is that they can't classify IDPA and USPSA shooters together. USPSA shooters have always been the backbone of the match and now they want to draw IDPA shooters. I think this is all BS because a lot of IDPA shooters also have USPSA classifications and the IDPA system roughly paralells USPSA classes. If enough USPSA shooters boycot this match maybe Dick Heinie will pull his head out of his ass and return this match to the status it had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Don't get me wrong, the SSC was one of the best matches I shot in a long time (2001-6th), but I'm with 2Alpha. I'm not going to pay for airline tickets, rental car, hotel, vacation time, and various other expenses for a raffle. There is a class for IDPA shooters, its called Unclassified. If IDPA shooters want to compete, all they have to do is go to ONE classifier match and shoot L-10. I don't think thats to much to ask if they want to be classified. If I lived down the road and didn't have all the ancillary expenses I would probably go, but I'm putting that much effort into a match for a raffle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 I hate to even ask this...and fan the fire... Why not just give the prizes from the top down? No classes at all? Sure, Robbie is going to win something at the top. But, I have seen him needing help carry in all the Springfield guns to put ON prize tables. I hear it is a good match to shoot? Bummer that there are prize table issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 My point is, as long as they score everybody, then it is a competition. Shoot to see how you do against other shooters. Is the reason you shoot matches to win 1st D or C in order to win a prize? I shoot to see how well I can do...in the match....against everybody. I want to win the match.... granted I never do, but that is still my goal. Not shooting a match because they don't have prizes for 1st D sounds like a sandbagger mentality. I'm not saying anyone is bagging, I'm just saying thats what it comes across sounding like. Boycotting a match isn't going to make them change, what they are doing must be drawing more shooters or they wouldn't do it. And drawing more shooters, no matter what sport they come from should be the goal. Boycotting it will just result in one less match to shoot every year. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Smitty, I think some of the guys are upset because they might be paying a highier match fee...for a lottery type draw. If they do well at a match that has prizes (and they paid more to enter it), then they are of the opinion that they should be rewarded for performance. (fairly common discussion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Smitty, they DO give a prize for 1stD, it's how they determine who's in D class that is the problem. Flex, straight place of finish would be fine with me and is the fairest of all systems. It worked at the Steel Challenge for years but they had a prize table that went all the way down the list. Don't know how they do it now. If I come off sounding like a sandbagger I don't know how to answer that. I will say though what does wanting a reward system based on luck sound like? Everytime this comes up the guys who want to compete on an even field get accused of only wanting prizes when the opposite is true. If I wanted to enter a lottery I would, If I enter a competition then performance should be rewarded. If I shoot well enough to win something, great, just don't raffle off my prize. If I don't shoot well enough then I don't expect anything. What else can you do besides boycotting? They may well draw more "shooters " with the Lewis system. They shouldn't draw more COMPETITORS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 First off, I'm not shooting this match, and probably never will. But I've heard it is a good match. I would just hate to see a good match go away because shooters boycott it. It takes a lot of work to put on a large scale match and it is impossible to make everybody happy. Heck the folks who put it on probably don't even know how you guys feel. Maybe suggest to them to devise a class system based on USPSA that takes IDPA classifications and puts them in a USPSA class. I'm not sure how IDPA classes their shooters but you should be able to make an educated guess at where they would fall in USPSA. Then they could also have a lewis class. I used to shoot a steel match in WA that did just that. It had it's own class system that took USPSA and IDPA and "fit" them into a class. Then they had a lewis system as kind of a catch all to give more opportunity for awards. If it is a match you normally shoot, I would suggest trying to work with the MD and let him or her know how you feel. Rather than just not showing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 The MD is well aware of the problem we have with the Lewis system. They did have a system before more or less like you have described, it's when they changed to the Lewis system that caused the problem for real competitors. This is match is more or less controlled by one man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Ok......I give up. You convinced me. Boycott it.....In fact, now I'm not going to go either. Seriously, If you and others have told him and he doesn't care, then I guess there ain't nothing else to do but skip it. I think Garcia here in FL is going to put on a single stack match. I'm not sure when, but if he does it, it will probably be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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