Discussion on attitude and perception

[Jake Di Vita]

I think the issue may be your definition of visualization.

For me, visualization is not necessarily "seeing" it. It's more of a feeling with your eyes. I never go up to a stage before I can constantly see me shooting it efficiently. Eventually after enough proper visualization you convince yourself you'll smoke it. You feel it.

This is a really hard subject to verbalize.

[wide45]

And here we come to it, though... the part that does drive me up the wall, right now. When I do that (above) - I am most decidedly not "seeing everything razor sharp in my mind", as everyone seems to talk about in their visualizations. Its almost as if, the less detailed I see it, the better, to a point.

My thinking is that visualizing the pattern of pasters is counter productive. There is seldom a need to see the cardboard that hard. I want to see the targets, and where I need to look for the next. By targets, I mean where I want the bullets to go, A zone, upper A, left side on A/C line...

I want razor clarity of the process, not each image.

[XRe]

This is a really hard subject to verbalize.

Yeah, I know

The precision of language seems to be a big limiting factor in the discussion, too...

Edited September 15, 2007 by XRe

[XRe]

I've continued my pondering, of course.... and realized that I was receiving at least part of the answer I'm seeking.... in the form of Brian's Maku Mozo emails (gee, go figure). Check this out:

9/12

This body is a skin bag of habitual obstructions produced by the twelvefold

routine of conditioning.

-Torei

9/14:

It is very difficult just to see what one is without wishing to change it,

and that very desire to change it is another form of conditioning: and so we

go on, moving from conditioning to conditioning, never experiencing

something beyond that which is limited.

-Krishnamurti

9/18

You do not know what will happen if you see yourself as you are without

wishing to bring about a change in that which you see.

-Krishnamurti

I wrote this in a PM to someone last night: I'm wondering if the message I'm getting isn't something to the effect of "you are already doing exactly what you need to do, if you'd just stop questioning it and thinking it needs to be something else....".... or..... "shut up, trust it, and just do it" for short... ???

I asked Brian via email if he'd aimed that last one at me, and then noted that synchronicity is such cool thing... and got back an appropriately cryptic "YES!"

What I'm taking out of this, in total, is this.... We are all different beings, with different minds, different conditioning, different temperaments. It only makes sense that we would use different language to describe similar processes, and that our processes themselves would differ, as well. Some of us will work best with razor sharp visual focus in our visualizations, with every minute detail of a course rendered in our minds.... Some of us will work best with a more abstract vision - but still a clear "idea" (sub in focus, intent, etc - in terms of what I'm trying to say, they're interchangeable) of what we're preparing to do. Language fails woefully in trying to describe our own internal works on visualization with any sort of precision - especially to a person who's internal mechanisms may differ so much from our own.

Does that make any sense to any of you guys at all???

Regarding Krishnamurti's assertions about desire to change just being conditioning - I understand on the surface. I'm not certain I understand fully, though, and pose another question - how does that concept relate to me as a shooter? I'm going to reserve my thoughts on this for a bit, and see what you guys come up with - cause I don't have all the answers at all (this is kind of a drift - if its not constructive to this thread, I'll be happy to open a new one on it ).

[38supPat]

See your self as you are, not what you wish you were.

Put another way. When you look at yourself shoot a stage, do you look at all the things you wish you had done different? Do you change things for the sake of change? Or can you just see what is happening/happened

I've seen shooters take a course from Todd, and spend all their time trying to do everything just like Todd, then a year or two later take a course from Eric, and spend all their time trying to do it just like Eric. Earlier in the thread a comment was made that I'll paraphrase, don't ask what they do, ask what they think.

Can you look at yourself shooting and see what you are doing rather that seeing what you think you should be doing, perhaps using someone else as the benchmark?

This is what I was refering to earlier. Sometimes you have to realize that it all really is easy, but we clutter our mind with nonsense worrying about what everyone else is doing, how they are doing it, whats going through their mind. When we should just be paying attention to ourselves.

[38supPat]

and this came through today:

I must know myself, not as I would ideologically like to be, but as I

actually am, however ugly or beautiful, however jealous, envious,

acquisitive.

-Krishnamurti

[38supPat]

I'll be heading to the range shortly....and paying attention

[Flexmoney]

As a shooter advances in skill, he doesn't need to tap the tank very much for those skills. That leaves more in the attention tank for other things.

I get what you're saying - and probably why you think it doesn't work as an analogy I'd put it more that as one advances, we become more efficient about our use of attention, and tank of attention gets bigger in size... For instance, we're still paying attention to grip on the gun, how the gun comes up in the draw, etc - but its not all consuming like it once was... We have more capacity to be aware of things, and our bodies are much better at using our resources effectively...

If you're clear of purpose...then no matter your skill level...you will perform to your current ability.

Let's talk about this a second... and how it relates to visualization. Pre-stage prep is the issue, right now - its the thing I'm questioning and examining. Currently, when I'm shooting my best... ...I shoot.

The difference between that and my over-obsessive analysis? I feel like I'm trying to visualize every last detail, down to the nth degree - I'm trying (there's that word ) to see perfs in my mind, see a paster to aim at, the exact number of steps, etc, etc, etc....

Perhaps...your tank is a bit empty?

How about if we switch analogies...

Lets say we are building a large structure (I like pyramids, but a skyscrapers will work too:) ). We have to start off with our foundation. From there, each level must then be sound and solid...so that we can go higher and higher and keep building. If not, we can't go further...and, in some cases, we may have to go back and redo prior levels of work

I'm wondering if this doesn't tie to the statement above in that.... When I go into "hyper visualization mode", am I just cluttering up my purpose? ...

Sounds about right.

I recall shooting Times Two earlier this year. How simple is that stage...shoot 3 targets from Box A, go to Box B and shoot 3 more. I got so caught up on the entering of Box B that, when it came time for my run, I crapped all over the whole stage.

The question for me becomes...why did I expend so much mental energy on entering the box ???

I made that the key to the stage and built it up in my head. Then...given that mental build up...instead of trusting, I built up a dam with a reservoir full of doubt. (Like my tie in to our tank analogy? )

I shouldn't need to count steps. I should be able to just tell my body to be >>> "there". If that doesn't work, then I probably have some work to do in practice.

I shouldn't need to spend 5 minutes going over how to enter a shooting position.

I shouldn't worry over shooting around the left side of a barricade.

I shouldn't ...etc...etc...

All that needs to be handled in practice. If something is off, then we need to go to whatever is the most basic and fix that (build from the foundation up). But, once at the match...we can't do much about it. So, our best chance is to accept our current ability level...whatever that may be on match day...and trust that, if we get out of our own way, we will shoot to the best of our current ability.

The best we an do is...'just shoot'.

If our visualization plan becomes too cluttered, then throw out the stuff that isn't the "most fundamental".

[Flexmoney]

I told myself that I wasn't going to read ahead on this thread...just respond as I got to stuff. I find it pretty cool that we are proving to be on the same page.

and the fix:

...nice spot of "identify, pick a route, burn in the plan, and execute" and shot much better for the last 5 stages.

And here we come to it, though... the part that does drive me up the wall, right now. When I do that (above) - I am most decidedly not "seeing everything razor sharp in my mind", as everyone seems to talk about in their visualizations. Its almost as if, the less detailed I see it, the better, to a point.

You've only got so much tank. When you do the above (identify...execute), you are "seeing what you need to see" with your visualization. Factor out the stuff that isn't important. Focus on the purpose, then allow your sub-conscious to execute the skill sets that you have acquired in practice. (If you have conflict here, identify it and ask why. It will likely prove to be a skill set that you don't trust...and can work on in practice. Accept that, then move on.)

...That I've somehow got a hole in the skill set that, when I start to work on it - I start to get into visualizing in that sense of detail, it just stops working entirely. Is that necessary? Really? Is this sense of acute visualization the only way?

What you are talking about there...using Bassham's terms...would be taking a skill and making it conscious, as opposed to sub-conscious.

Further, you are taking something that you don't trust (from my read on it) and giving that thing power. Focusing on a negative. In my Times Two example...I don't need to feed mental energy into how I get into Box B...I just need to get into Box B. Just Do It...let the body figure out the how (which it will, based on current ability).

[Flexmoney]

One other detail, before I forget to add it in - I'm finding that I'm more of a "feel" person, in terms of my visualization. I'm not certain how to describe exactly what I mean, but I'll give it a whirl. My performances are better when my visualizations are not structured, logical, point A to point B, rattle it all off kinds of things - but more when they are having a "sense of things". Like, I know where the target is, I know what the scoring zones look like on it, I know how to drive the gun there, and make holes where they need to be. If I let those details deal with themselves - or put a different way (though I hadn't quite perceived it like this before), if I trust that I know how to do those things - and instead focus my visualization on the things I mentioned above, and just feeling what its like to look at the target, and then at the next one, and then what it looks like to come into the next position, etc... Then it all happens. ... I don't know that that makes any frickin' sense at all, but.... I gave it a shot, anyway

Well...that will teach me to not read ahead. lol.

I did a lot of typing to try to say the same thing. But, I learn as I type, so it's all good.

I might go so far as to say that the "feeling" you are after is that "trust". That knowing. It is comfortable. It's a focus on the positive.

[XRe]

Well...that will teach me to not read ahead. lol

Keep going....

[Flexmoney]

What if we were in that comfort place as much as possible? Which means...no worries.

That's a different way of considering the term "comfort zone" for me. To me, "comfort zone" has meant the slow death... no improvement, no zest in the performance. In fact, at this point, I seem to be more comfortable with something that feels like stretching and growing - breaking habits and barriers and old ways of thinking - and it strikes me as the exact opposite of being in the "comfort zone".

Well, I didn't term that correctly. I certainly didn't mean to be in a "comfort zone".

This thought is tough to describe, because we all like to see things from a duality perspective (black/white, hot/cold, speed/accuracy). In the past, I might suggest to a shooter that they shoot/push a certain percentage of their ability. I always liked to suggest that that number be whatever their classifier percentage happened to be. If they had an 73% average, then they might go at a 73% pace. But, that was merely a way of suggesting that one shoot within their ability. I never really liked saying it like that, but at many levels, that got the message through.

Here, I think we are talking better terms. Perhaps harder to grasp, but the upper-level shooters here can relate.

So...what did I mean by "comfort place" ?

The mental territory I am talking about is not a struggle between holding back and going for it. It's more of a focus on what you know. Further, it's allowing yourself to be open and aware (maybe this focus on what you know allows this, by freeing up space in the mental gas tank). When we are open and aware, we can identify opportunities.

Analogy time: If I want to figure the area of a triangle, it helps if I know algebra. I could probably get there without knowing algebra (make a model, for instance), but knowing algebra allows it to be quick and efficient. Knowing algebra is relatively fundamental in this case. So, great...I know algebra. I can figure the area of a triangle. But, wait...I can also use algebra to figure out the area of a circle...or how my hit factor translates into seconds per point.

I guess I am saying that it's not a "comfort zone"...not an area of holding back...it's more of an area of knowing. From that area of knowing, we can see what's next.

... But... what do I know about that, anyway??? I'm back in that funny spot we find a lot as we grow where we suddenly feel like we're in a new spot and we once again know nothing. I'm good with that - but that's where a lot of this examination is coming from.

I think I hit that feeling ever time I moved up in classification...wondering how I'd ever get to the next level.

(It doesn't mean holding back and limiting.) What if we are comfortable and performing at a high level...? What if we had that clarity or purpose...? Wouldn't that allow us to be open ? Wouldn't we then slip into that magical 'zone' from time to time? Couldn't we allow ourselves to be in position for that?

I have to meditate on this some more.... I'll have a couple hours tomorrow on the way to and back from the match in Waco... I'm not certain I fully understand what you're getting at, here... Let me come back to this tomorrow....

[Flexmoney]

If you can just clearly visualize everything you want to happen - without any thought whatsoever - there's a pretty good chance that it will.

And this is exactly the sort of thing that has me hung up - the phrase "clearly visualize". What does that mean? What does that feel like??? Do those questions make sense? Knowing that I already acknowledged no absolutes, let me probe that concept - if I don't visualize my seeing sense to an infinite level of detail, am I still visualizing clearly? Can I be successful without razor sharp visual focus in my "visualization"?? Is visualization more than just seeing everything in your mind? What does the word "clearly" mean?

Am I wrapped around the axle far enough, yet??? heh heh...

Back in the early days of the forum, I was struggling with how far out to hold the gun...how much light around the front sight...that kinda stuff. Brian told me to trust/allow my body to just figure that out for itself.

That is what I am getting at when I talk of clarity of purpose.

Ohhh...another one (or two) from early BE...

Ok...nothing more fundamental than:

- locate the target

- get the gun on target

- keep the gun on target until the bullet leaves the barrel

Repeat as needed.

Now, the shooter's job is to get the gun into position to do the above. The shooter becomes the transport unit to get the gun to the proper x,y,z coordinates so the shot(s) can be made.

How's that for clarity of purpose? Simple?

[Flexmoney]

What I'm taking out of this, in total, is this.... We are all different beings, with different minds, different conditioning, different temperaments. It only makes sense that we would use different language to describe similar processes, and that our processes themselves would differ, as well. Some of us will work best with razor sharp visual focus in our visualizations, with every minute detail of a course rendered in our minds.... Some of us will work best with a more abstract vision - but still a clear "idea" (sub in focus, intent, etc - in terms of what I'm trying to say, they're interchangeable) of what we're preparing to do. Language fails woefully in trying to describe our own internal works on visualization with any sort of precision - especially to a person who's internal mechanisms may differ so much from our own.

Yeah. And, bullshit.

On one hand we are talking about such detail that various words are going to get in the way of how we see things. On the other hand, just saying 'we are different' is a cop-out. We learn nothing from each other by saying we're different.

[XRe]

On one hand we are talking about such detail that various words are going to get in the way of how we see things.

This is part of what I was getting at, exactly. The other part is that, though there are core commonalities (for instance, clarity of purpose as part of visualiziation), the exact details of our visualization methods don't have to exactly match for them to be effective for either one of us, assuming that the core stuff is there.

On the other hand, just saying 'we are different' is a cop-out. We learn nothing from each other by saying we're different.

That is entirely not what I was getting. Its obvious that all of us are different people, isn't it? Different sizes, shapes, preferences, ways of thinking, strengths, weaknesses, etc. We encourage people to find, in the end, what works for them, based on a core set of principles - that is what I'm getting at, not a way to avoid a point.

Let me reply to some other stuff, here, and see if we can make some more sense....

[Flexmoney]

Cool.

I was just putting the heat on ya.

I've seen too many times where people (myself included) look for an out. I didn't think you'd be doing that here, but I wanted to get that out so others didn't latch onto it.

[XRe]

You've only got so much tank. When you do the above (identify...execute), you are "seeing what you need to see" with your visualization. Factor out the stuff that isn't important. Focus on the purpose, then allow your sub-conscious to execute the skill sets that you have acquired in practice. (If you have conflict here, identify it and ask why. It will likely prove to be a skill set that you don't trust...and can work on in practice. Accept that, then move on.)

What you are talking about there...using Bassham's terms...would be taking a skill and making it conscious, as opposed to sub-conscious.

The skill I'm actually doing this with is the visualization itself. I've tried to recall a time in the recent past when I found myself overworking a particular skill in visualization and I'm not coming up with much - but the skill of visualization itself rings more true to me. Let me base on your example below:

Further, you are taking something that you don't trust (from my read on it) and giving that thing power. Focusing on a negative. In my Times Two example...I don't need to feed mental energy into how I get into Box B...I just need to get into Box B. Just Do It...let the body figure out the how (which it will, based on current ability).

In this case, I've not been, say, emphasizing how to move into a box, or something like that, specifically. Instead, its been about trying to experience in my head every last detail of shooting the stage, not for the sake of a specific shooting skill, but for the sake of insuring adequate visualization. The process of visualization itself is what I'd taken conscious control over - which seems like the result of which was a muddy plan without clarity of purpose (based on our conversation in this thread). When I stopped trying to be something I thought I needed to be, and instead just was who I am, things started clicking again.

I was spending a lot of energy on consciously visualizing (seeing as a picture in my mind, in this case) every last minute detail I could conjure up. That obviously left less for the execution, in addition to cluttering everything up. And what is conscious control, other than trying... (at least, in this sense of conscious control).

At the root, the motivation to go there was fear. I'd had a miss on a stage, and for whatever reason equated the lack of visual patience that caused the un-called miss with a lack of visualization, and then tried to solve it by empahsizing more vivid visualization - because I was afraid of missing again, and that I was not doing everything I could to avoid it. The answer was really to remain confident in what I could do, and just do what works within the bounds of my current abilities - not to try to force anything.

[XRe]

I guess I am saying that it's not a "comfort zone"...not an area of holding back...it's more of an area of knowing. From that area of knowing, we can see what's next.

Ok, I can hang with that. I would say that goes right along with the feelings of trust and (real) confidence (really, those are all synonyms for the same thing, aren't they?).

[XRe]

Back in the early days of the forum, I was struggling with how far out to hold the gun...how much light around the front sight...that kinda stuff. Brian told me to trust/allow my body to just figure that out for itself.

That is what I am getting at when I talk of clarity of purpose.

Yeah, I dig that.

Now, the shooter's job is to get the gun into position to do the above. The shooter becomes the transport unit to get the gun to the proper x,y,z coordinates so the shot(s) can be made.

How's that for clarity of purpose? Simple?

Very. I understand your use of the term "clarity of purpose" pretty well, now.

[XRe]

I was just putting the heat on ya.

I've seen too many times where people (myself included) look for an out. I didn't think you'd be doing that here, but I wanted to get that out so others didn't latch onto it.

No worries I've been that guy more than enough, myself

[-M2]

Here is a discussion between Flex and I that we figured would spark a interesting discussion.

TheItlianStalion (1:15:38 AM): ya know...i really think you if got into it heavily, you could be a threat to win nats

FLEXMONEY (1:15:56 AM): I like my mental game

TheItlianStalion (1:16:35 AM): i think its one of the best in the sport

FLEXMONEY (1:16:18 AM): it carries me often...

FLEXMONEY (1:16:36 AM): and every now and then I get right into...the zone

TheItlianStalion (1:17:21 AM): yep

FLEXMONEY (1:17:09 AM): what is hurting me is the lack of shooting

TheItlianStalion (1:17:31 AM): usually whenever you say "lets try it"

TheItlianStalion (1:17:32 AM): yeah

FLEXMONEY (1:17:16 AM): it has caught up to me

TheItlianStalion (1:18:00 AM): a good tight dry fire routine and some religious live fire will get you right in there

FLEXMONEY (1:18:00 AM): yeah...I need that to get back...to build the trust

TheItlianStalion (1:18:21 AM): exactly

TheItlianStalion (1:18:40 AM): i was thinking about it the other day.....(shooter's name edited) skill with your mental game = a new world champion

TheItlianStalion (1:19:02 AM): i think he is technically superior to eric....eric just expects to win

FLEXMONEY (1:18:58 AM): hmmm....Fry Frenchy

TheItlianStalion (1:19:20 AM): heh

TheItlianStalion (1:19:39 AM): and more than that...eric knows he has earned the win

FLEXMONEY (1:19:24 AM): he talks about Frenchy too much for my taste

TheItlianStalion (1:19:46 AM): in what way?

FLEXMONEY (1:20:16 AM): he talked about the WS and "you know who"

TheItlianStalion (1:20:35 AM): right

FLEXMONEY (1:20:32 AM): i just read another reference to that in Front Sight

FLEXMONEY (1:20:45 AM): wasn't said by him, but likely originated from him

TheItlianStalion (1:21:08 AM): k

TheItlianStalion (1:21:13 AM): just building eric up?

FLEXMONEY (1:21:03 AM): maybe he doesn't...that is just the feel i get

FLEXMONEY (1:21:29 AM): yeah...why focus on Eric...why focus on the external

TheItlianStalion (1:21:52 AM): the thing with him is he is not the same shooting physically as he is in his self image

TheItlianStalion (1:22:01 AM): and he excels in spite of this still

TheItlianStalion (1:22:06 AM): but could be much much better

FLEXMONEY (1:22:01 AM): he can shoot

TheItlianStalion (1:22:20 AM): at a match he walked me through the first day

TheItlianStalion (1:22:35 AM): and really thought he would have to shoot great to beat me

TheItlianStalion (1:22:48 AM): and of course he blew me out of the water

TheItlianStalion (1:22:54 AM): but i really dont think he knew he would do that

TheItlianStalion (1:23:00 AM): i get the feeling like he was enrvous

TheItlianStalion (1:23:06 AM): and thats the wrong way to look at it

FLEXMONEY (1:22:57 AM): well..there is a good example...one that BE talked about in his book

TheItlianStalion (1:23:22 AM): the lion mentality....go up there knowing your the f*#&$* king

TheItlianStalion (1:23:29 AM): k

FLEXMONEY (1:23:31 AM): BE mentioned how he watched some shooter nail a stage...

FLEXMONEY (1:23:47 AM): then, that made him nervous and second guess a bit b4 he shot

FLEXMONEY (1:24:23 AM): when...in the reality of it...you never can tell what the stage..or match..will be like until you are in it to experience it

TheItlianStalion (1:24:48 AM): exactly

FLEXMONEY (1:24:45 AM): kinda..pre-judging

TheItlianStalion (1:25:08 AM): every match is different, and to try and predict it takes your focus away from performing in it

FLEXMONEY (1:25:01 AM): right

TheItlianStalion (1:25:40 AM): and i think all that stems from a confidence issue

TheItlianStalion (1:25:54 AM): from that hour of practice you neglected to do at 1 AM

FLEXMONEY (1:25:40 AM): I think peak performance in allowed to happen when an indivisual has an internal focus

TheItlianStalion (1:26:04 AM): yeah

TheItlianStalion (1:26:24 AM): unless you truly believe you are prepared for the match fully, your thoughts will always gravitate to self doubt

FLEXMONEY (1:26:41 AM): yeah...there is that, for sure

FLEXMONEY (1:26:56 AM): but...let's seperate that a bit

FLEXMONEY (1:27:21 AM): if will have (bassham terms)...your skills circle

FLEXMONEY (1:27:36 AM): ...whatever it may be for the moment in time...

FLEXMONEY (1:28:13 AM): the mental circle that goes with that (ok...a little drift from bassham)...

FLEXMONEY (1:28:51 AM): if that circle is big, then you can perform to the levbel of your skills set

TheItlianStalion (1:29:13 AM): right

FLEXMONEY (1:29:12 AM): and, that may means excepting that your skill set isn't 100%

TheItlianStalion (1:29:44 AM): the question is....how does one increase the size of the circle and then maintain it through a match or season

FLEXMONEY (1:29:53 AM): your skill set may be 90%...but if you aren't there mentally...then you cna't even approach that 90%

TheItlianStalion (1:30:18 AM): right

TheItlianStalion (1:30:34 AM): your mental fortitude acts as a barrier on your skills if it isnt 100%

FLEXMONEY (1:30:53 AM): so...if you are focused exteranlly...worried..wondering...trying...that level of your skill set won't be achieved

TheItlianStalion (1:31:51 AM): so basically every conscious thought you have outside of your own performance is limiting

FLEXMONEY (1:32:29 AM): who knows if he can beat frenchy..who knows how good he is when frenchy is around...because he has a bit of frenchy on his mind...which means he is trying

TheItlianStalion (1:33:02 AM): right

TheItlianStalion (1:33:21 AM): its almost like the more you think about a competitor, the more power you give him

TheItlianStalion (1:33:38 AM): and everyone's mind is always on the french kid "who hasnt lost for 9 years"

FLEXMONEY (1:33:58 AM): right...in our game...our competitor doesn't need any space in our head

FLEXMONEY (1:34:06 AM): how can there be room for that

FLEXMONEY (1:34:48 AM): if we are letting frenchy in...there who is going to let our shooting in

TheItlianStalion (1:35:24 AM): right

TheItlianStalion (1:35:49 AM): its almost as if you let your top gear transfer from you to eric because all of a sudden you are limited by his prescence

FLEXMONEY (1:35:50 AM): like you said...you give the other guy the power..

FLEXMONEY (1:36:12 AM): or...really...you are taking power away from yourself

TheItlianStalion (1:36:52 AM): right....and because he is the most prepared shooter there it is going directly to him

FLEXMONEY (1:38:14 AM): well...whatever you give up...just brings you down from your potential, i think

FLEXMONEY (1:38:31 AM): your competition...they got their own problems.

TheItlianStalion (1:38:56 AM): yeah

FLEXMONEY (1:39:01 AM): i don't like to think of them as being better prepared or not

FLEXMONEY (1:39:06 AM): I'd rather not think of them

TheItlianStalion (1:39:38 AM): of course

TheItlianStalion (1:39:54 AM): im really looking forward to checking out tiger's book

FLEXMONEY (1:40:07 AM): I'm not thinking I am giving away to them...so much as setting my limit

TheItlianStalion (1:40:37 AM): k

TheItlianStalion (1:41:28 AM): so you think your gonna get back into shooting heavily at any point?

FLEXMONEY (1:41:20 AM): one trick i like is to think..."if that ass-hole can do it...so can I"

TheItlianStalion (1:41:43 AM): heh yeah

FLEXMONEY (1:41:30 AM): but...even that is limiting

TheItlianStalion (1:42:12 AM): because your performance is then limited to his peak

FLEXMONEY (1:42:04 AM): it's a focus on what you know is possible...on what is supposed to happen

FLEXMONEY (1:42:10 AM): right..

FLEXMONEY (1:42:29 AM): as opposed to focusing on the execution of your game

FLEXMONEY (1:43:34 AM): I think somebody jsut talked about this on the forum recently...

FLEXMONEY (1:44:02 AM): about limiting yourself by what you program or visualize

TheItlianStalion (1:44:26 AM): heh yeah

TheItlianStalion (1:44:53 AM): it seems like any thought that is made is inherently limiting because thought cannot take place in the present

FLEXMONEY (1:44:54 AM): yeah...

FLEXMONEY (1:45:07 AM): I can visualize a perfect shot or a perfect run...

FLEXMONEY (1:45:20 AM): and...as I execute that...

FLEXMONEY (1:45:26 AM): what is the best I can do ?

TheItlianStalion (1:45:58 AM): what you visualized as perfect

TheItlianStalion (1:46:39 AM): and that then limits the creativity you attain by shooting in the zone

FLEXMONEY (1:46:31 AM): yeah...if i execute the plan perfectly...i am still limited by the plan

Hey Guys,

I don't unsually hang out in the forums but occasionally I have some friends send me links that they think I should view. I also let a lot of things roll off my back that I see posted about my self or friends of mine and to be honest, I'm kind of tired of it.

Kyle, and Jake...

It is one thing to talk about a subject but to talk about someone or something that you truly know nothing about is another. It would be like me saying how do you know your mental game is so great and strong if it hasn't been tested at the highest level? Sure, anyone has a good mental game when nothing is on the line exept a class win. However, I wouldn't say that about you or anyone else because I don't know all the facts about that indiviual. People have their own struggles and use various things to motivate them.

What kind of mental game do you think it takes to place top 3 OVERALL in your last 10 National Championships and actually win 4 of them? How about nearly 30 Area Championship wins? Or 2 World Speed Shooting Championships, and by the way... when you're in the box for your last 4 runs, $40,000 is on the line? That's right, you have no idea.

I'm not here to argue and I won't be back posting in this area of the forum again. Just remember, there is great info posted here for new shooters and lots of people read what goes on here and including plenty of top shooters that let it go, but make sure to be courteous to them with your expert comments.

M2

[Flexmoney]

Hi Max.

That conversation took place on an Instant Message between me and Jake. It wasn't crafted to be public. But, we got something out of it and thought to share it with others that might also. It certainly has sparked some good discussion (which is what this place is about).

Jake tried to clean up the names before posting, without losing the brunt of the conversation. That conversation really wasn't about anybody, as much as it was about a couple of guys working the mental game. I don't know if you've read this thread, but we get into the trouble we have with words having different meanings to different people. When you have a high profile example to throw out...that serves as common ground for communication. As you mentioned, the conclusions may be wrong, but we have a point of reference to go off of.

You are right in pointing out that we don't have all those title wins to put us in the spot light. We are just a couple of guys shining the light around looking for crumbs. As you mentioned, we all have our own struggles.

Please jump in with any thoughts/insight that you have on the mental game. We'd all benefit from your added participation on the subject.

[benos]

Man, this thread fried my brain.

Regardless of your temperament, natural ability, skill level, experience, or "who" you are... Ask yourself: What do I have to see, feel, or see and feel, to know I hit "this" target at the instant the shot fired? Ask yourself that for each target, starting from the beginning of the stage. Then tie all the visual images and feelings together, and create a movie for the stage; which includes how you will feel, if that's important to you. At the buzzer, pause, and push the play button.

If the stage requires movement and/or reloads, include what you will see and feel during those times in your movie. If the stage includes movement, include what you will see as you're entering each postion.

The key is what and how do you need to see. What will it look and feel like to you, so you know, at the instant each shot fired - the target was hit.

Due to temperament, natural ability, skill level, experience, trust and confidence levels, the variables in the above are endless. Regardless, it comes down to you. You have to figure it out for yourself. Others can help, but in the end it's you who has to know.

be

[uscbigdawg]

I'm with BE. My head hurts.

I'll say this about a particular stage that I love, Bang 'n' Clang. I can see it in my head without even trying at Bay 2 at Richmond Rod & Gun Club. I've shot it I don't know how many times, but only once to near my potential. I liken this to every other stage that I shoot though.

When I can CLEARLY see every aspect of the stage, I can see the imperfections on the face of the steel, staples on the target and the outlines of the scoring zones, to include the letters. I don't have to think about the draw, first shot on the steel, transition, next steel transition, etc. When I'm in the right place, I simply see the dot on the steel, I'm executing a clean trigger pull and watching the gun climb in recoil and transition to the next target.

This is pure relaxation, absent of conscious thought and pure subconscious thought, manifesting in physical action. The conscious is completely at east and is simply just monitoring and watching the actions in front of it (that being the subconscious).

My problems arise when I relax too much and while I do have the stages programmed, I cannot with 100% confidence describe target positions, obstructions and hazards. This unfortunately manifests now in the subconscious sleeping (minus only knowing where the targets are at) and the conscious doing constant calculation/assessment of what is going on. This is what I call active thinking which is incredibly slow and inefficient. Our best shooting, at least for me, is as stated above. When in pure relaxation and clarity of purpose and position, we are simply shooting with no judgement.

Hope that contributed.

Rich

[benos]

After typing the last post I remembered a fun experience. I was at the pinnacle of my visualization experimentation. I was experimenting with "ways of seeing" Steel Challenge stages at first (because you could shoot the same stage over and over), then I started working with it in Tueday Night Steel matches at Rio. Me and Robbie were standing by a stage, and I have him an in-depth explanation of how I visualized it. I still remember the perplexed look on his face as he slightly shook his head and said, "Man, I don't see anything like that.

There's an interesting Temperament lesson there. I love experimenting more than anything. My whole life... nothing is more fun than the "definitive test." Whatever it is, getting better at it excites me the most. When I'm done with one thing I'll find something else to experiment with. In competition, that was my weak point in IPSC competition. Always striving for the ultimate performance doesn't produce consistent results. Robbie, on the other hand, cares most about winning matches.

be