Need some insight shooting production division

[Throwin Lead]

I'm new to shooting period let alone shooting in the USPSA.

I have some questions regarding shooting in the production division.

Since production is scored minor I think it's best to try to get as many alpha's as possible even if it means a 3rd shot at a target. I'm doing fairly well hitting the A zone and have to "make up" a shot here or there. My biggest downfall right now is speed at which I can complete a stage accurately.

I shot a local club match 2 weeks ago and shot a stage Mess Around - 33 rounds 165 points.

I scored 30 Alphas, 1 Bravo & 2 Charlies; my time was 57.27seconds. I did well scoring(hitting the targets - 159 points) but the stage points only totaled 54.4748. Needless to say although I shot the stage well I finished last.

This was only the 5th match that I have ever shot. There is so much mentally going on - SAFE GUN HANDLING, planning places to reload, remember where some targets are hidden, etc. that I'm a tad bit apprehensive about trying to attack the course "runnin & gunnin". I know my limitations and I'm not ready for that yet. I'm by no means discouraged. I'm having a great time shooting & reloading, have met a lot of great people and have decided that to get better I need to become a student of the game.

In contrast the shooter that won the stage shot 29 alpha's & 4 charlies in 18.67 seconds with a stage score of 165.

All that said when can I expect it all to come together- accuracy & speed?

I dry fire practice 2 nights a week for about an hour or so & weather permitting I shoot a practice at the club once a week. In practice last week I tried the hoser approach. I shot much faster but I didn't score well at all - mostly charlie delta's & mikes with a smattereing of alphas. When I finally get classified I'll probably start out as a D shooter, learning from the practice experience if I adopt the hoser approach I'll be a D shooter for some time.

Any suggestions to help a newbie out or should I just soldier along and in due time the speed part will come along?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[Micah]

Welcome to the forums, and welcome to the best sport in the world!

Which is more important, speed or accuracy? The answer is yes. Shooting A's quickly is the goal to this sport. You have the right foundation shooting for points-the speed will come with practice and experience.

Here's something that I posted earlier about dryfire.

Dryfire is something that I very strongly believe in. In a little less than a year, I have made the move from a poor D class shooter (poor in skills) to a poor A class shooter (poor in money, but rich in skills.

I have a daily routine that is composed of dryfire drills contained in Steve Anderson's two books Refinement and Repetition and Principles of Performance

Link to Andersonshooting.com

I dryfire these drills on 1/4 sized targets that can be found on CPWSA's website

[http://www.cpwsa.com/DryFireKit.htm]Linky to site[/url]

Here's a link to my range diary that has some pics of my dryfire setup:

My indoor range

I do not use anything other than a timer, my gun, and two marked magazines that contain dummy rounds.

Hope this helped,

MB

[Jman]

My "speed", and I use the word with great embellishment, came when I learned to trust

the shot. And that comes from "calling" the shot. Simply put, knowing the popper is shot

allows for faster transition to the next target. You no longer look for a bullet hole or for the

plate to fall. Do a search on 'calling the shot'. Your starting attitude sounds solid. Enjoy

the journey.

Jim

[G-ManBart]

I think that it will come together at a different time for everyone. I know that's not much of an answer, but it's true.

Accuracy can't be overstated...it's the #1 thing. If you can't shoot accurately, you're not going to get very far in USPSA shooting. The best shooters just shoot to that level of accuracy faster than other people. In Production, you're right...you've got to shoot almost all As or you're not competitive. So, now it's just a matter of letting the speed happen. I think most people would agree that it's not about being able to pull the trigger faster, it's about seeing faster. You've got to see whatever it is you need to see on each shot to ensure an A hit. If it's at 3ft, you've really only got to see the gun indexed on the center of the target to know it'll be an A. If it's at 50ft, you're going to need to see the front sight centered on the target to know it'll be an A hit. The more you practice, the faster you'll be able to see what you need to. That's why after a while, what feels like slow motion is usually really fast. Benos' book Beyond Fundamentals has some great sections on awareness and seeing what you need to see. I break mine out regularly and review those sections because my understanding of them never seems to stop developing...it's worth the read!

Edited May 16, 2007 by G-ManBart

[Vulture]

I will give you the perspective from someone who was where you are not that long ago. As you progress in this insanity that we all know and love you will find yourself seeing what you need to see a little bit faster every time you go out. The only thing different from you and the winner of the stage is he saw the sites faster than you did. You're saying "I know that, how do i get like him?" Practice. Dry fire every day you can even if it is for only half an hour. The gun needs to become part of your arm. When you live fire add some drills that cause you to start breathing hard, or take you out of your comfort zone. If you can hold steady when you are short of breath you can shoot that much faster. Don't do the hoser thing because then you will be slow and a bad shot. A mike will kill a classifier when you are a C to D level shooter. After that you should have Mr Mike on a leash, he don't ever go away. Have a plan for practice. There are many books and videos on this site you can order that do help. Shoot lots, every league or club match you can. Don't forget the have fun part.If this becomes an endeavure that causes you to go home pissed or angry then you need to adjust your attidude accordingly. It happens for everyone at different times but you will get faster. Just enjoy the journey because the place you are leaving is a place you will not revisit if you stay in the sport.

[Throwin Lead]

Thanks to all that have replied so far.

I guess I'm on the right track - I have copies of Steve Anderson's first book & Brian's book, I dry fire practice at least twice a week, and try to live fire practice at least once a week. I fortunate to have access to a cad department that can print my targets on a plotter. My dry fire course consist of 1/4 scale IPSC targets & poppers, a 2x4 with paper cake plates attached and a few cake plates perched atop lamps for shooting steel plates off a stand. I'm having a ball running my home stages.

I'm a fairly patient person - if you all say that fundamentally shoot A's the speed will come sooner or later then I guess that's what I will need to do. One thing about starting out as a D class shooter - I will certainly have the opportunity to climb the classification ladder!

About calling the shot - I've really been trying to pay attention to where the front sight is when the trigger is pressed but have noticed that some of the time I'm jerking the trigger taking the shot from what I percieve to be an alpha to a charlie or even at times a delta or mike. Knowing a bit about math & trig, a slight muzzle movement - fraction of an inch -at the firing line will compound drastically downrange into many inches. I'm finding this to be my biggest problem shooting steel poppers. Perhaps it's a mental thing for me as steel has been my toughest target to date - I then try too hard and cause a flinch.

Are there good exercises to practice trigger control? I thought of doing Steve's drill #1 live for several rounds then step it up to double taps just to try to get the feel of seeing/calling the shot.

[JoshF]

I'm a fairly new shooter myself. I started into this sport with my Father and Brother so we've all have our trouble spots we need to work on.

I believe your difficulty with plates and probably poppers comes from the trigger control. Poor trigger control (Jerking, pulling, etc) usually translates into side to side movement. Which on a skinny or tall & skinny target means a miss where on paper it's a charlie and no big deal. My Dad had the same issue. He still hates the plates on his "off" days.

Also if you are shooting all A's that is very good (especially in production). I started the same (accurate but SLOW). Speed will come and dryfire practice is where I find I have built most of my speed. So you are on the right track.

Finally shoot with people you enjoy being around. I find that if I enjoy the people I'm around even a bad day shooting is still enjoyable.

[Jman]

Learn your trigger by focusing entirely on the trigger. Here's what I do. Set up a bench rest. Forget the IPSC/USPSA/IDPA game thing for now. Look at Brian's book for proper grip pics, they're great. Isolate the trigger finger, it's not part of the grip. No tension there at all. Brains suggestion to use no target is brilliant. Just a safe back stop. Remember it is nothing but the trigger. I have a sweet spot on my trigger finger pad. It's almost to the first joint but not quite. Shoot. Each shot needs to surprise you. You are leaning nothing but what happened when it went bang. Once that is dialed in start watching the sights. Later you might add a target to make the process a little more fun. Anyway, forget the game for now. ISOLATE the trigger finger.

see this thread too..

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...trigger+control

Jim

Edited May 16, 2007 by JimmyM

[ima45dv8]

About calling the shot - I've really been trying to pay attention to where the front sight is when the trigger is pressed but have noticed that some of the time I'm jerking the trigger taking the shot from what I percieve to be an alpha to a charlie or even at times a delta or mike. Knowing a bit about math & trig, a slight muzzle movement - fraction of an inch -at the firing line will compound drastically downrange into many inches. I'm finding this to be my biggest problem shooting steel poppers. Perhaps it's a mental thing for me as steel has been my toughest target to date - I then try too hard and cause a flinch.

I made a similar statement recently and was quickly corrected by Flex and Brian. What they pointed out was that if I "called a good shot", and then later found out it was a miss, I didn't *really* call the shot. Whether it's taking my eyes off the sights a moment too soon (transitioning), or looking at the target instead of the sights (target focus), if I had truly been looking at the sights when the gun fired I would know when I had wanked one off-target.

Maybe I've developed a flinch recently that I'm not aware of and am blinking when the gun fires, or more likely, I'm just not following through with my attention where it needs to be -- on the front sight as the gun fires. Make calling the shot, each and every one, your highest priority when you go the the firing line and it will happen.

[gunsablazin]

watch and ask the better shooters most people in this game love to help the new guy's.

I tell i'll help you until you start beating me then i'll send you to the guy who is helping me!

Edited May 16, 2007 by gunsablazin

[crabby]

As others have said, we have all been where you are (in fact, I am a "B" class Production shooter & still trying to get ever faster). At first, I was a ditto of you: high scores, slow time. I will share the best advice given to me:

1. "LET THE SPEED COME NATURALLY." Sure enough, the more I shot, the faster I got. But it took time. As I practiced, shot more matches, became more confident, etc ... the speed began to evolve.

2. "SHOOT OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE ... BUT JUST BARELY." I began to try to shoot just a little faster than my comfort zone (not "hosing" ... just fast enough to where I was not totally comfortable). It works!

3. "LEARN TO SEE THE STAGE WELL, GET YOUR PLAN IN YOUR MIND & SHOOT WHAT YOU HAVE VISUALIZED." This helped me more than anything! Often, the reason that one is slow is because they have not yet learned to really "see" the stage well, nor have they learned to "plan" how they will shoot the stage. So, when they start shooting, they feel unsure and cautious, which equals slow times! Do you shoot shorter stages better and faster, as compared to longer - more complexed stages? (In other words, do you place higher on shorter stages?) If so, you need #3!

Maybe some of that will help you in some way. Good luck. The speed will come with time.

[HoMiE]

It all comes together when you start to connect the dots. Reading books, this forum, watching other shooters, dry-fire practice and participation at your local club matches are just ways you prepare yourself to become a better shooter. If you watch a GM shoot, they are smooth. It almost sounds like one constant string of fire (depending on the course). But they weren't born that way, well maybey a couple of them.

As far as advice for shooting production, make your shoots count, plan out the stage and try to shoot from as few positions as possible. Think economy of motion, even it means taking a far shot. Don't shoot, take a step, shoot, take another step, shoot, etc. Get to that spot where you can fire 8-10 rounds. Then when you have to get to another spot, make sure you are reloading on the move. Nothing kills time more than standing reloads or going to slide lock and wondering why the gun won't fire. Stages with ports, don't stick your gun in if you don't have too. Keep your gun up in line of sight. It takes time to drop gun, bring it back up and get focus on sights again. Find someone to practice with and video tape yourself. You will most likely catch yourself doing something you were not aware of and make improvement on it. Lastly, shoot your own "game". Don't get caught up with shooting it how someone else shoot the stage or change your stage preparation when the RO ask "Are you ready?"

That's all I got to say bout that.