Newbie quandary... shoot Production or Limited 10?

[Tungsten]

By way of a brief overview... I'm new to USPSA but not new to shooting. Been doing that literally my entire adult life. Decided to get into competitive shooting as a way to have fun, be social with my fellow shooters and expand my horizons a bit from just shooting in a lane at the range.

Last weekend I shot my first ever USPSA match with my SW1911. Loved it. Gun worked wonderfully and far outperformed the shooter behind the trigger. Will continue participating in single stack class as often as I can. I don't reload (yet) so ammo expense will play a little bit of a part in how often I do that with the 45acp.

One of my other handguns is a Smith & Wesson M&P 40 caliber 4" service pistol. Nice gun, pretty heavy trigger that breaks like a half-inch stick of pine. Hard break! Needs a nice trigger job and have considered sending it off to Dan Burwell for such. BUT, I am having a bit of an argument with myself over my continued use of the .40SW for USPSA.

Would like to hear thoughts and words of advice from those of you here who have been there and done it.

My quandary is that I know if I keep shooting .40SW that I will be at a slight disadvantage in Production class events because most Production shooters use 9mm loaded light. Recoil is much more controllable and of course all guns are rated as Minor Power regardless of their true power rating. Again, I don't reload so producing bunny-fart loads for the .40SW is not something I can personally do. Furthermore I understand that some M&P 40's are having problems cycling with light loads.

An option would be to shoot .40SW in Limited 10, but I'd be in a class against folks with more modifications done to their firearms than I prefer. And also in a class with folks shooting 10rd double-stack 1911 style guns like the Para Ord. Again, they'd enjoy the advantage of heavier gun, lighter loads even though there is a discernment between Minor and Major power factor in Limited 10.

I'm really tempted to just ditch the .40SW and move to a 9mm M&P and shoot that in Production. Lighter recoil, easier to manage, cheaper to shoot, etc.

I guess I just want to be reasonably competitive and don't want to start out with the odds against me because of poorly matched equipment. I just don't know if I'm making a big deal out of something that's really inconsequential.

Talk some sense into me!

[Flexmoney]

The "cheaper to shoot" is what would push me towards 9mm...and Production. Since you don't reload...this could really add up.

If you did reload, then shooting 40 in Production (with downloaded ammo) is not a disadvantage at all. But...even that has become more expensive lately...as 40 bullet (component) prices have far outpaced 9mm bullet prices.

If you get serious and shoot a full season or two..the 9mm will kinda pay for itself.

The M&P trigger is workable. it is easy enough to take a few pounds off of it, while smoothing it up quite a bit in the process. You might do this yourself if you are handy with tools, if not...I don't recall anybody regretting sending their gun to Dan burwell.

[XRe]

I don't reload (yet) so ammo expense will play a little bit of a part in how often I do that with the 45acp.

Not to mention that in this caliber, shooting factory ammo, you're also shooting ammo that's a lot hotter than the handloads most folks are running....

My quandary is that I know if I keep shooting .40SW that I will be at a slight disadvantage in Production class events because most Production shooters use 9mm loaded light.

This is true - but really not any bigger disadvantage than the 190+ PF .45 loads you're shooting in L-10, either

I'm really tempted to just ditch the .40SW and move to a 9mm M&P and shoot that in Production. Lighter recoil, easier to manage, cheaper to shoot, etc.

For shooting factory ammo, this would be the most "competitive" setup (in that you'll have low recoil w/o having to hand load). The factory ammo is cheaper, as you say, too.

I guess I just want to be reasonably competitive and don't want to start out with the odds against me because of poorly matched equipment. I just don't know if I'm making a big deal out of something that's really inconsequential.

Heck, man, just go shoot Its almost entirely the shooter that creates the results. Rob Leatham shoots factory ammo at full PF in his guns, and it doesn't seem to affect him all that much (yeah, I know Rob's not human, but still....)

But, w/o reloading, and needing to afford ammo, the 9mm option might be most viable for competition purposes. Consider getting into a reloading rig, though - its not that expensive to start up, its easy to do, and you can create higher quality ammo that's more tuned to your equipment and your personal tastes. Its even getting to the point where reloading 9x19 is more econonomical now... yeesh. .45 becomes a lot cheaper, and you can tune production loads to create a low recoil load that's still reliable in your pistols...

[Tungsten]

Heck, man, just go shoot Its almost entirely the shooter that creates the results. Rob Leatham shoots factory ammo at full PF in his guns, and it doesn't seem to affect him all that much (yeah, I know Rob's not human, but still....)

Rob's a freaking machine from what I've seen. I hear that Chuck Norris is afraid of Rob, and Chuck Norris isn't afraid of anyone.

Thanks for the words of advice. I'm inching slowly toward getting into reloading but have some other things that are absolutely dominating my "fun money" right now in some very un-fun ways. It sounds like 9mm might be the best thing for me at this moment.

Keep the replies coming, folks. I'm digesting all of this and will be using it to help direct my ultimate decision. It's all greatly appreciated.

[JoshF]

One of my other handguns is a Smith & Wesson M&P 40 caliber 4" service pistol. Nice gun, pretty heavy trigger that breaks like a half-inch stick of pine. Hard break! Needs a nice trigger job and have considered sending it off to Dan Burwell for such. BUT, I am having a bit of an argument with myself over my continued use of the .40SW for USPSA.

Would like to hear thoughts and words of advice from those of you here who have been there and done it.

My quandary is that I know if I keep shooting .40SW that I will be at a slight disadvantage in Production class events because most Production shooters use 9mm loaded light. Recoil is much more controllable and of course all guns are rated as Minor Power regardless of their true power rating. Again, I don't reload so producing bunny-fart loads for the .40SW is not something I can personally do. Furthermore I understand that some M&P 40's are having problems cycling with light loads.

An option would be to shoot .40SW in Limited 10, but I'd be in a class against folks with more modifications done to their firearms than I prefer. And also in a class with folks shooting 10rd double-stack 1911 style guns like the Para Ord. Again, they'd enjoy the advantage of heavier gun, lighter loads even though there is a discernment between Minor and Major power factor in Limited 10.

I'm really tempted to just ditch the .40SW and move to a 9mm M&P and shoot that in Production. Lighter recoil, easier to manage, cheaper to shoot, etc.

I guess I just want to be reasonably competitive and don't want to start out with the odds against me because of poorly matched equipment. I just don't know if I'm making a big deal out of something that's really inconsequential.

Talk some sense into me!

Another option is to purchase .40 from Atlanta Arms and Ammo

http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/products.html

They come pretty highly recommended and sell .40 minor loads that would make you competitive in production class.

This would get you by till you start reloading (yes it's inevitable and fun, kinda). Also I find .40 brass is almost easier to get than 9mm. Since it's the round of choice for limited which makes up the biggest group of shooters I always find guys selling buckets, bags and about anything else full of .40 brass at the local clubs. I don't see this with 9mm since it has a much smaller following in the USPSA scene.

As for minor loads in a .40 M&P both my father and brother have the same pistol and shoot minor loads in them exclusively without a single hiccup.

I'd say get that trigger smoothed up, give AA&A a call then call Bladetech for some of their new revolution gear (very nice for the price!). You'll have minimal money involved and you can decide if the .40 doesn't work trade it off for a 9mm.

[Tungsten]

As for minor loads in a .40 M&P both my father and brother have the same pistol and shoot minor loads in them exclusively without a single hiccup.

I'd say get that trigger smoothed up, give AA&A a call then call Bladetech for some of their new revolution gear (very nice for the price!). You'll have minimal money involved and you can decide if the .40 doesn't work trade it off for a 9mm.

Thanks for the advice and pointer toward AAA. I've used some of their ammo but not the lower power loads. Will definitely check into that if I opt to continue using the .40SW

Also, I do have a Blade-Tech dropped offset holster and two revolution dual mag pouches on the way and they should be here today. Can't wait to try them out. I use Comp-Tac pouches and a G-Code holster for my 1911. All good products.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Tungsten

[dcarter]

I've been shooting the M&P9 since it was issued to me in Aug 06. If you have the funds I would recommend getting one and having the trigger work done on it. I would do a few things if I could get one for myself. As this is a department firearm, I can't do anything to it. But if I had one of my own the trigger job and a new front sight would be the first things I would do. Good luck.

[tomfturner]

Though I haven't started shooting mine in competition I love the M&P40 with "mouse-fart" loads, and haven't had a problem with feeding. I think that all comes down to grip (luckily you can adjust that on the gun). Some friends of mine had some FTFs with my mouse-fart loads, but I didn't have the same problem as the gun was "set up" for me. Also in the M&P40 they felt very nice, they were better than most factory 9mm I've shot.

Just something else to think about. For the cost of another M&P you can probably get into a basic reloading setup, and tune a load to the way you want to shoot.

[Brian Payne]

If you do decide to switch to a 9mm M&P, I would wait for the long slide version (think Glock 34) of the 9mm. I have seen the prototype, one of these will be in my safe in the future.

I also like the model that has the 1911 type safety lever on the frame of the weapon.

Edited May 11, 2007 by Sgt

[Tungsten]

I've been shooting the M&P9 since it was issued to me in Aug 06. If you have the funds I would recommend getting one and having the trigger work done on it. I would do a few things if I could get one for myself. As this is a department firearm, I can't do anything to it. But if I had one of my own the trigger job and a new front sight would be the first things I would do. Good luck.

If I switch to the M&P 9mm the 40SW will likely be sold or traded to cover it. I've got an M&P 40c (compact) that I carry daily and a couple 1911s in the vault, so I keep telling myself that I wouldn't miss the big 40 too much. Maybe.

Just something else to think about. For the cost of another M&P you can probably get into a basic reloading setup, and tune a load to the way you want to shoot.

Yeah, reloading would definitely provide some flexibility. I am going to have to give some serious consideration to this after I get some other things taken care of. Right now my "fun money" reserves are being used for some other things that life has dealt me. But no big deal; I'll recover and get into reloading sooner or later!

If you do decide to switch to a 9mm M&P, I would wait for the long slide version (think Glock 34) of the 9mm. I have seen the prototype, one of these will be in my safe in the future.

I also like the model that has the 1911 type safety lever on the frame of the weapon.

That model with the thumb safety is their new M&P 45 and it's available both with and without. I held one the other day and had to force myself to let the clerk have it back. Very nice weapon! My 1911s would be perturbed if they had to share shelf space with it.

I agree about the long slide M&P. I think they are calling it the "M&P Pro" during the prototyping phase. I saw some pictures of one from SHOT 2007. You know, I might just endure with the 40SW until such time that the Pro 9mm is available and then pick one of those up. By then I should be able to afford to keep both.

[Throwin Lead]

I too shot a MP40 in production. I'm a newbie to both shooting a handgun and competing in the USPSA.

I purchased my MP40 this past March. Dan Burwell did a trigger job and instaled a Warren tatical rear sight and a Dawson F/O front site. All of those made a big improvement on how much better I'm shooting. I highly recommend a Burwell trigger job.

I purchased a used Dillon 550 with a lot of accessories including 40 cal & 9mm dies and powder heads/tool heads for $500. I'm currently making minor loads for my 40 in the 135 to 140 PF range as chronoed.

All in all I'm having a lot of fun competeing and have become a student of the game in both the competive aspect as well as the reloading part of it.

As stated above for the cost of a new 9mm you could get into reloading. My reloading costs are about ten cents per round or $100 per thousand rounds. I'm shooting 3 matches a month and a weekly practice -about 800 rounds per month. WWB ammo is selling for about $20 per box of 100 at the local Wally World. By making my own I'm able to save some money, tailor the load to my specs & I'm able to shoot more. As a newbie just starting out trigger time is important to me. Doing it cost effectively is a bonus.

Think about reloading - it will open up a lot of possibilities for you down the road if you decide to shoot in other divisions or perhaps reload in other calibers. You will learn a lot about shooting by making your own.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Merlin Orr]

...........Think about reloading - it will open up a lot of possibilities for you down the road if you decide to shoot in other divisions or perhaps reload in other calibers. You will learn a lot about shooting by making your own..........

Yep. +1

[Throwin Lead]

Don't give up on that .40 just yet! I stumbled on this article while searching some other things in the forum. It's an article about why shooters are using .40 in production vs. 9mm. I found it to be a great read.

minor40prod2.doc

[Tungsten]

Guys, thanks much for the replies. I've decided to stick with the 40 and perhaps just add an M&P 9 "Pro" whenever that new model comes out later.

Last Friday I took off work a little early and went to my local indoor range to spend a little trigger time with the 40. I experimented with several different things and then it hit me why I was good with my first shot and then subsequently lousy (2" - 3" lateral drift on POI) when my follow-up shots. I was resetting the trigger during recoil rather than letting the muzzle settle before creeping it out ever so slightly and then pressing it back in for the follow-up shot. Once I got the mechanics back down, my groups went from sloppy to tight.

I've got a 10-8 Performance rear sight that I am going to put back on the gun and maybe order a Dawson Precision front fiber sight to compliment it.

Really want to send it out to Dan Burwell for a trigger job, and may just go ahead and do that this week since this is an off-week for shooting locally. I hear it's $50 well spent.

As for reloading... I think it's inevitable that I will get into it. It's just a matter of when I'll be able to afford the gear. Hopefully soon.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Tungsten

[38superman]

My advice:

Get a trigger job and shoot the 40 in Limited 10 rather than production.

That way you wont be disadvantanged by shooting factory ammo in a division that is minor power factor by definition.

There are all sorts of guns in L10, and you can certainly compete well with any of them with the M&P.

If the 40 is your carry gun, that is another reason to stick with it in competition.

The more you shoot the gun in competition, the better you will shoot it in defense.

I see no reason to go for a 9mm unless you are married to the idea of shooting production.

My $.02

Tony