Ar Newb Question On Iron Sights

[alzo]

I have a flat top 16" AR from Bushmaster. While I have had it for a few years, I have hardly fired it (I'm a pistol guy). So I am very new to rifle shooting. Do most folks shoot at 100 yards with iron sights ? If so, what kind of groups should be expected at that range ?

The reason I ask is that when I first got the rifle, I tried it with the standard A2 sights. At 100 yards, my front sight obscured at least half, if not all of the 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper I was aiming at. That being the case, I couldn't see how I was to actually aim at the 2" x 2" "bull" I had on that paper. Even if the 2" x 2" square wasn't obscured, I don't know if I could see it from that far away.

I ended up putting a scope on the AR, but that always felt like cheating. I'd like to get to learn how to shoot it accurately with the iron sights. But I have no clue what's reasonable to expect as far as groups with iron sights at various distances. If just hitting that piece of paper consistently at 100 yards is just fine, I don't want to beat myself up for not shooting 2" groups.

Can any of you provide some guidance ? Thanks.

Edited May 1, 2007 by alzo

[bigbrowndog]

the size of the target should fit the size of your front post, even if it means using a larger target. you should still be able to fire decent groups, with a larger target. I tend to use a 5" target at 100, 8" at 200, and 12" at 300. they are the smallest targets I can reliably see over my post under most conditions.

that said, most of us who shoot irons in competition thin the post to at least .050, mine are .035ish, however i do occassionally bend them on accident. Thinning the post can be done easily with a drill press and a file or dremel. (Oh crap i used the "D" word)

For shooting at 100yds, you should get at a maximum 2-3inches of grouping for your shots. This will allow you to have the accuracy needed to successfully engage 10inch plates at 300, which we have to do on occassion. The zero that gets used most often is anywhere from a 250yd zero to a 325yd zero, this allows for minor elevation compensation when shooting closer or further than your zero distance. (aiming lower or higher).

Hope this helps.............Trapr

[jbullgpd]

Good info dog, Alzo you also might want to try using the lollipop method of aiming as well when zeroing so you can have a consistent point of aim. Target is the circle, sight is the stick if you get my meaning. It is hard to hold on the same spot in the middle of a target but much easier to put the circle on top of your sight. I don't aim like this for regular shooting unless my zero vs distance mandates it but it helps when zeroing to get a consistent hold point.

[alzo]

Thanks for the info.

What's the best way to get started "the right way" with basic rifle marksmanship ? I'm on the east coast, and as far as I know we're not awash in coaches (or rifle ranges for that matter).

Edited May 1, 2007 by alzo

[bigbrowndog]

There is alot of good info, in David Tubb's book on competitive rifle shooting, some of it doesn't cross over, but alot of it does. especially dealing with conditions and good basic info.

I used to be restricted in my distance shooting by only having 100yd ranges to shoot on. this will get you started, and form a good basis for getting familiar with your rifle and what its capabilities are. however there is no substitute for shooting at distance, and dealing with conditions. You can substitute smaller targets, to compensate for distance if you are limited in your available ranges. Also do a search for Highpower matches in your area, or Silhouette and see if you can use the range.

Trapr

[Bronco]

Go to the NRA web site and do a search for the state you live in/shoot in. See if there is a state rifle association and contact them for good basic marksmanship training. One of the trainers for Kansas is a friend of mine and has helped me a great deal.

[bigbrowndog]

Also, alzo, I just looked at the JP video "gas gun basics" and it has some very good info in it, i would recommend it to everyone............its got stuff you've probably forgotten about.

and its entertaining

Trapr

[jbullgpd]

and its entertaining

Trapr

I heard that as well, there is a bit on it in this months front sight, it sounds like a funny good buy.

Alzo, also might think about your gun set up as well. I started with a 16 inch and once I started shooting longer distances to get better groups I had to go to a 20 inch barrel, heavier bullets and also extend my sight radius by posting my iron sight at the muzzle. That is down the road of course the basics is what is important initially.

Edited May 1, 2007 by jbullgpd

[alzo]

Thanks again for all of the info. I really am completely new with the rifle. I figured "I can shoot a handgun pretty well...how different can it be ?". But I don't shoot what I'd call good groups with the AR, and I know that's because I don't know what I'm doing. Mine is a Bushmaster V-Match 16", stock as it comes from the factory. The trigger is a bit rougher and heavier than I'm used to, but not awful. The range I use has a separate 25-50-100 range and another 200-300-600 range. I'll have to check out resources you all mentioned.

[bigbrowndog]

it sounds like you have ample range facilities. spend your money on ammo for practice, instead of gadgets and gimmicks, and you'll be ahead of the game. 2-20 round, 4-30 round magazines is really all you need to get started. you can get away with using pockets for mag holders for now, or slip them under your belt. Your stock trigger will suffice, it will just take some getting used to.

work on shooting from sitting, prone, kneeling and supported standing, lengthening your sight radius will help, thinning your post will definetly help, improving your trigger will help. you can also use a 22 rimfire, for practice. Dry firing will help, and won't cost you anything but time, just like it does for pistol.

Trapr

[Mike P]

Another good place to get good info on rifle marksmanship development is in Fred's guide to becoming a "rifleman". It is loaded with good basic marksmanship instuction and reduced targets/drills etc. It is also cheap. It isn't geared toward 3-gun, but basics are basics, eh?

The sixteen inch gun will group at 100 and hit ten inch plates at 300 if you do your part. It'll work fine for gaining the basics. That said, longer sight radius and a better trigger will be helpful. A thinner front post is a BIG help too.

Don't feel guilty about using optics, I find using them correctly (or trying to) at least as hard as shooting irons, maybe harder considering the choices of reticles, magnification, mounting options, etc. etc. etc.

Good luck,

Mike

[hopalong]

Alzo,

Brown dog knows what he's talking about that's for sure. Might be able to help you a little myself(although I get "bitten" by the dog every time we shoot)

Good starting reference:

6 inch Black dot on a white background of 2'x2' 100yds to the target.

Sight picture:

Black dot centered in the rear peep. Black dot sitting on top of front post.

You want the center of the group to impact the center of the dot at 100yds (giving you an automatic 3" hold over at 100yds).

Most AR platforms will hold 3" or less groups with ammo that fits the barrel twist........slower twist for heavier bullets.

The 3'' high thing will get you a dead on never leave what your shooting at and hit within 3 inches out to 250 yds give or take a little depending on bullet weight and speed but that is a general idea.

For an IPSC target or similar, just aim where you want to hit(except real tight head shots at 70 yds ect then you have to remember your hold over/under to make up for it (practice will tell you how much)

That should get you started in the right direction.

Hopalong

[Dan Sierpina]

Alzo,

Most AR platforms will hold 3" or less groups with ammo that fits the barrel twist........slower twist for heavier bullets.

Fast twist for heavy bullets! A 9" twist might work with Hornady 75 BTHP's, it does in mine. Sierra recommends an 8" twist for the 77 MatchKing.

[hopalong]

Well, maybe one of my Dislexic moments! ( or could it be the momory thing I forget sometimes)

hop

[kellyn]

My first piece of advice is to get an optic.

My second piece of advice is to reevaluate your equipment. I have a difficult time shooting rifles with the reduced sight radius of a 16 in AR. If you want to shoot irons, sight radius is your friend - a full size AR might be in order.

All that being said, I'd parrot some of the other recommendations. Work on shooting groups in the prone position (resting the rifle on a 30 rd magazine). Use the lollipop sight picture. Get a thinner front post. Practice all the positions: reverse kneeling and offhand in particular.

Buy Matt Burkett's and/or Bennie Cooley's AR15 DVDs. Buy Tubb's books. Buy the USMC rifle manual.

Get a workable trigger (JP or Accuracy Speaks).

Buy or load ammo, zero your rifle, practice, repeat as necessary.

[alzo]

For those of you recommending "an optic", do you mean some sort of red-dot sight or a conventional scope ? As I indicated, I already have a scope mounted on the rifle (Weaver Grand Slam 3.5-10X).

I appreciate everyone's feedback. Whether I leave the scope on, go back to the fixed sights (Bushmaster A3 handle rear and flip up front), or a new optical sight, I still need to learn my part. Now I've got more info to help me do that.

[kellyn]

Conventional Optic: low powered variable (in the 1-4X, 1-3X, 1.5-5X range) or an ACOG.