How Would You Call It?

[Ben Stoeger]

Here is the situation: On the last stage of a club level match, a newbie shooter decides to switch from a 9mm/SSP gun to a .45acp/CDP gun. The SO says you can't do that, but the shooter insists. He even swears at the SO. To defuse the situation, the SO runs the shooter. He then records the time/points and brings the matter to the MD. If you were the MD, how would you handle the situation?

I would roll my eyes, shake my head, and walk in the other direction.

[Shawn Knight]

Here is the situation: On the last stage of a club level match, a newbie shooter decides to switch from a 9mm/SSP gun to a .45acp/CDP gun. The SO says you can't do that, but the shooter insists. He even swears at the SO. To defuse the situation, the SO runs the shooter. He then records the time/points and brings the matter to the MD. If you were the MD, how would you handle the situation?

I would roll my eyes, shake my head, and walk in the other direction.

Hmmm... Looks like a good option. Beats quoting rules.

[Flexmoney]

It kinda sounds like the newbie shooter was shooting a Glock...having trouble with the getting hits...and got frustrated. Then requesteddemanded to switch guns to a 1911 (which would mean switching divisions). Or something like that ?

It can be rough when you are having trouble getting something to perform like your expectations tell you it ought to...especially if you are new.

If I were running the shooter, I'd probably want to let him know that what he wished was against the rules, but I'd bump it up to the Match Director. (In USPSA the Range Master has to approve all gun changes, I don't know if IDPA has such a procedure?)

Is there any provision that would allow the shooter to be put into a division that both guns would be legal in? (ESP?)

Sounds like the SO handled it well. The MD would want to follow the rule book...the only fair thing for the rest of the shooters.

The newbie's attitude...that needs work.

[richardschennberg]

As the SO, I would have asked why, including inquiring if he was low on ammo for his original gun. If the change in mag capacity would have resulted in slide lock at a more advantageous point in the stage, I would have required him to retain the empty mag as if he was doing a Tactical Reload. Most complaints can be answered by explaining that you are trying to be fair to the other competitors. Look up the rule or ask the MD before making a ruling.

As the MD, once the SO had allowed the 2nd gun, I would have let that issue go. I would suggest to all SOs that they look up the rule or ask the MD before making a controversial call. The new shooter needs to be welcomed, but also reminded that the SOs are volunteers and could do without unnecessary grief. I think the 1st time a shooter is unduly rude to an SO he should be given a warning, then perhaps a procedural penalty on the stage for a 2nd offense.

[Mayonaise]

With a new shooter I'd explain the rules that changing divisions during a match is not allowed. If he insisted I'd let him shoot with the understanding that he would be scored a DNF on that stage and the match. His choice from that point.

I don't know precisely how I'd deal with the cussing part since I wasn't there. Likely I'd ask the person to leave and give him a DQ. Telling him he's welcome to come back next month with a valid IDPA card and an attitude adjustment. Tell him it's a volunteer sport and we don't volunteer for verbal or physical abuse, we probably get enough of that at home and our paying jobs.

[Hot Brass]

Sorry about not responding sooner, but I've been on the road for 2 days with work.

I'm not aware of any problem with the shooter's gun. It was the last stage of the match and the shooter left the range as soon as he finished shooting. He was gone by the time the SO found me. I know the SO well and can assure you that he was not rude to the shooter.

While scoring the match I did notice that this particular shooter got a few PE's. He was not the only shooter that got a few PE's during the match, but may have felt like he was being treated unfairly. Knowing the SO, I'm sure he earned them. If he decides to come shoot with us again, I will have a talk with him.

Since he was a new shooter and it was a club level match, I gave the shooter a DNF on the last stage. Thanks for everyone's input.

-Capel

-Edit-

P.S. After looking at the results again, the shooter was not a newbie. He has shot several matches and is classified as a MM.

Edited March 30, 2007 by Hot Brass

[Joe D]

If he complains too much just "bitch slap" him. Send him to Alabama. We have some good old boys here that still dress up in white and wear pointed hoods. They do look a little odd when they shoot a match. OTOH there is never an issue with concealment.

[Glock3422]

Beats quoting rules.

How so?

Explaining the rules of the game does more than handing out penalties, DQs, or dismissively walking away. It assumes the shooter does not understand the ramifications of what he wants to do and gives him options. It also informs the shooter that there are rules to cover the situation.

What would you suggest?

How would it benefit the shooter?

How would it benefit the sport?

[Shawn Knight]

Beats quoting rules.

How so?

Explaining the rules of the game does more than handing out penalties, DQs, or dismissively walking away. It assumes the shooter does not understand the ramifications of what he wants to do and gives him options. It also informs the shooter that there are rules to cover the situation.

What would you suggest?

How would it benefit the shooter?

How would it benefit the sport?

Well I did quote a rule. But that is all I did. I did my own research before I went to my first match. I joined IDPA and USPSA before even going to a match. I knew what the rules were before I even got there because I read those rule books both organizations sent me in the mail. If he didn't get any then he should have gone online. If he didn't have access to a computer then he should have asked when called for information about the match and shooting club. At what point do we hold people accountable for their own actions? And since when is walking away from a belligerent, ignorant person is bad? I don't care if he was brand spanking new and this was his first match ever. He has no right at all to start sh!t because he doesn't like the call. It isn't like he was getting penalized for a prop that didn't work or a perfect double. His gun broke and he wanted to switch. Therefore he gets a DNF on the remainder of his stage and no scores posted for the rest of the stages he shoots. That is the rules. He got angry for whatever reason and started getting mean. He can go home now.

[Chills1994]

So I just want to get this straight, if you shoot one gun say like a Glock 35 in SSP, and it goes Tango Uniform in the middle of a match, and you have a Glock 34 in your car, you CAN or CANNOT exchange guns?

Do you have to get SO or MD approval first?

Okay, how about if you started out w/ the Glock 34 and then wanted to switch to the 35?

Much grass!

(If a shooter had verbally assaulted me like that the range, he would have received an R. Lee Ermey style a$$ chewing. Then he would have gotten the DQ and the DNF.)

Edited April 3, 2007 by Chills1994

[Shawn Knight]

So I just want to get this straight, if you shoot one gun say like a Glock 35 in SSP, and it goes Tango Uniform in the middle of a match, and you have a Glock 34 in your car, you CAN or CANNOT exchange guns?

CANNOT. You're changing calibers. According to the rule you can change guns for same action type and caliber.

Do you have to get SO or MD approval first?

Yes. Just say, "I need to change guns. My primary went down and I have my backup. The backup is the same action type and caliber according to Rule C 12.

Okay, how about if you started out w/ the Glock 34 and then wanted to switch to the 35?

In a big match no. Legally No. Local Club match... MD approval?? Up to your Club. You should at least know the rules and understand them. That way you won't be pissed off if you get tossed out of a Big match because they let you do it at club level.

Much grass!

(If a shooter had verbally assaulted me like that the range, he would have received an R. Lee Ermey style a$$ chewing. Then he would have gotten the DQ and the DNF.)

[Ben Stoeger]

Beats quoting rules.

Explaining the rules of the game does more than handing out penalties, DQs, or dismissively walking away.

My tounge was firmly planted in my cheek when I said to do that. The reason is that so many things went wrong in this situation.

The new shooter was being a jerk.. the SO was a complete pushover... and it is tough to sort that out after the fact. This is probobly why I am not an MD.

[Duane Thomas]

His gun broke and he wanted to switch.

It hasn't been established that his gun broke. It has been established that he cursed out the SO, for which there is no excuse.

[Hot Brass]

His gun broke and he wanted to switch.

It hasn't been established that his gun broke. It has been established that he cursed out the SO, for which there is no excuse.

His gun was not broken.

[Shawn Knight]

OK so the gun was not broke

The guy just wanted to switch? Did he want to try his other pistol out? Was the SO giving him heck about it?

[Hot Brass]

OK so the gun was not broke

The guy just wanted to switch? Did he want to try his other pistol out? Was the SO giving him heck about it?

The shooter never gave a reason for why he wanted to switch and the SO was not giving anyone a hard time.

The stage contained 2 Hard Head Ted targets. On these targets it is possible to hit the steel rod (that holds the COM and head plate) and not drop the target. The guy probably switched guns to ensure he knocked over the steel. At least this is our best guess.

Click on the Details link at http://www.dvctargets.com to see what I'm talking about. Also see http://www.gadpa.com/photos/idpa_intro_cli...picture328.aspx for details on how we use the Hard Head Ted targets. We cut the -0 circle out of an IDPA target and tie-wrap it to the steel frame. Then we put a t-shirt and hat on the target. The steel rods are round and even a .45 can glance off the rod without knocking the target over. We did calibrate the targets with 9mm and even a low hit on the COM plate would drop the target.

[steel1212]

If he is classified as MM he is NOT a new shooter. Sure maybe the first match he shot was a classifier or something but he has done it before. Being that I would have told him to finish with the gun he started being that its not broken. If he does not like that he doesn't have to finish.

Now the whole cussing out the RO part is uncalled for no matter what the problem was. Screw the DNF stage and hand him a DQ and tell him not to come back until he apologizes. There is just no reason to through a temper tantroum because you don't get your way. SUCK it up and be a man.

[Redrum]

If he'd asked nicely, go ahead. What does it matter what a beginner shoots at a club match? I'd post his score separately under "Division: Mixed" and let it go at that. I'd also explain that it was not permitted under official rules, that if he wanted to shoot two guns in the future he could pay two entry fees and shoot the whole match twice.

I woudn't have turned him down flat, but if I were the MD and he had cursed one of my SOs who did, he would get a DQ from the match and so shown on the scores. And a strong caution on his behavior if he came back next time.

Ditto!!!

kj