Match Dq Opinions

[bruce282]

Let's compare this situation in IDPA to a similar one in USPSA. I've attended many USPSA matches, both local and area, where competitors were told to unload, show clear, and hammer down, and the gun fires. In all cases, the competitor was DQ'ed from the match. Nothing was said to the RO's and every competitor at the match agreed with the call.

Why should an IDPA SO who is following the rules be treated any differently?

Were any of those USPSA matches "No light total darkness, nobody but the RO has a light stage"? If not we're comparing apples to oranges.

The official USPSA range command is "If clear, hammer down, holster". It's a question for the shooter.

IDPA commands are

H. Unload and Show Clear.

I. Slide Down or Cylinder Closed.

J. Hammer Down.

K. Holster.

There are commands the shooter is to follow.

Semantics aside, safety should be the number one guideline for matches, any matches. In my option if the SO is the one handling the only light allowed on a pitch black stage he should bear the responsibility of making sure the gun is clear.

[Mike Wood]

I guess I am still stuck on the Time issue. Was it just for the COF for the other shooters not to see the stage? Lights on before UASC is easy to do. One shooter (one that has already shot) is chosen to turn the lights on and off at the SO's command. This should have been done from the start.

I agree, and I wanted that but I wasnt' running the match and as I said before I don't have all the answers.You'd really have to talk to the MD for that. Joe Ford (who started this thread) knows him too. Maybe he could shed some light on it. Next year it may be different.

[CSEMARTIN]

Why should an IDPA SO who is following the rules be treated any differently?

The SO didn't follow the rules. Letting that SO run other shooters through that course of fire is a lot like letting a driver that's nodding off at the wheel keep driving because they're awake now.

[Mike Wood]

When I'm running a night fire requalification for my agency, I specifically leave the lights off until AFTER UASC to make them finger probe the chamber and magazine well. The shooter shouldn't have to have light to know the condition of his weapon, and the shooter should never trust someone else to check the condition for them.

Finger probing the mag well in this instance would have prevented the DQ. But the SHOOTER is ultimately responsible for UNLOADING his own gun. The RO is responsible for making sure it's unloaded. I personally will be using the finger probe from now on.

[Mike Wood]

Let's compare this situation in IDPA to a similar one in USPSA. I've attended many USPSA matches, both local and area, where competitors were told to unload, show clear, and hammer down, and the gun fires. In all cases, the competitor was DQ'ed from the match. Nothing was said to the RO's and every competitor at the match agreed with the call.

Why should an IDPA SO who is following the rules be treated any differently?

One reason, like it or lick it, is there are a lot more shooters than RO's. Often there are barely enough RO's to go around which was the case with this match. There is a whole lotta arm chair quarterbacking going on here and I wonder how much clock running experience some of you guys have that would pull the RO from the match. Singlestacks post speaks volumes. Right or wrong I doubt you will ever find a match anywhere that the RO would have been pulled.

[Duane Thomas]

I had my flashlight stowed in my vest pocket (something I hadn't practiced before, but I knew that was how it was going to be at the match so I wanted to practice it that way).

And we see the problem here, right? Lots of dry fire before trying anything new and "weird", before doing it with a hot gun, is a very good idea.

[Duane Thomas]

Just to give my opinion, I'll start with one of my favorite quotes:

"Responsibility is a unique concept: it can only reside and inhere in a single individual. You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you. You may disclaim it, but you cannot divest yourself of it. Even if you do not recognize it or admit its presence, you cannot escape it. If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance, or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible."

Hyman G. Rickover, Admiral, United States Navy

If the gun in my hand ever goes off when it shouldn't, it's my responibility. Period.

[rubberneck]

One thing I have noticed about low light shoots:

Most people are programmed to take out the magazine, stow it, rack the slide and drop the hammer. Very automatic. Now integrate a flashlight into the mix.

The shooter takes the flashlight, stows it, then racks the slide, and finally drops the hammer. They are so used to that action, that subconsciously they realize the next step after stowing is to rack the slide, forgetting now they have two items to stow. Another bad by product of the "speed unload".

I have had to interrupt people from doing this cycle at low light shoots, when I saw them stow the flashlight, rack the slide but knew they did not yet remove the magazine, I would yell "STOP!" and start them over.

Low light shoots are no more dangerous than any other kind of shoots really. Like anything else you have to be on your toes.

I really hate to second guess SO's and all that. Though FWIW, I use a light myself when clearing the shooter, and have stuck my fingers into guns and chambers to make real sure there are no cartridges and/or magazines left in the gun before making the hammer down command.

Ted IIRC wasn't there a shooter at the 2005 Pa State match that got DQ'd for doing exactly the same thing?

[Jim Watson]

If you think I am going to stick MY finger in YOUR chamber depending on you to hold the slide back off of it, you are nuts. If you want to do a pelvic exam on it, go right ahead.

I will, in a low light situation, be glad to shine my IDPA 10th Anniversary Presentation Digilight at the chamber and get as good a visual as possible.

[Ted Murphy]

Ted IIRC wasn't there a shooter at the 2005 Pa State match that got DQ'd for doing exactly the same thing?

Yes. As I remember he did a speed-unload and pulled the trigger before the SO could stop him. The phenomenon I mentioned before. He stowed the flashlight, and subconsciously figured he stowed the magazine. Racked the slide, and dropped the hammer.

He was not the only one to try that (about 4 or 5 did) , but he was the only one who went all the way through with it. IIRC it was pretty fast and the So tried to stop him but to no avail.

Never understood while people rush the Unload and Show Clear part of the stage. Not like the timer is still going.

Ted

[CSEMARTIN]

Lots of dry fire before trying anything new and "weird", before doing it with a hot gun, is a very good idea.

I did begin this exercise with dry fire before going to the range. I should have spent some time doing it in the dark before going hot. Great point Duane! I still think it was someone elses fault though.

[Redrum]

I guess I'll have to put in my .02...FWIW...

First...this was not an AD but a ND. Yeah I know...semantics...but it more accurately describes what happened. The shooter just got a bit confused (with the addition of the flashlight and cast) and it took him out of his "normal" routine of Unload and show clear. This however shows that we must at ALL times be aware of what we are doing with a firearm...loaded or unloaded. I have been shooting with this shooter for many years and I have all the faith and confidence in him and I respect him now even more than before due to the way he conducted himself.

This is the first ND that we have had at this match in the 5 years of holding the match. We have only had 1 other DQ (for not showing up for the rest of the stages). This is a very well run match. The "time constraints" mentioned in another post cover the shooting block of 3 hours to run 8-10 shooters through 10 stages each (5 dark and 5 light). This being the case, safety is never sacrificed at the expense of "saving time". There were a few cases of firearm misfeeds that could not be cleared by racking the slide. The lights were turned on and the RO removed the firearm from the range to a safe area to be cleared.

After this incident, procedures for that particular stage were changed for the rest of the match. After the shooter was finished and indicated that they were through, the shooter kept the firearm pointed down range, with the finger out of the trigger guard (being watched by the SO) while the scorekeeper moved to the shooters weak side and removed the "cast". They the shooter was allowed to unload and show clear.

While I was on the range I never heard the SO tell the shooters to turn off and stow the flashlight until after they were holstered and coming off the range. That is not to say that it didn't happen that day ( I wasn't there that day), but the standard op was to let the shooter use his/her light to unload and show clear and holster and then turn it off. Many of the shooters put their lights in their mouths when they were done to illuminate the firearm. I let mine dangle from my wrist. It gave off enough light to show the cylinder (I shoot a wheelgun). After I was holstered I turned off the light and grabbed onto the SO's shoulder to walk out of the stage.

I think that it was the addition of the "cast" and the flashlight that added 2 more levels of though to the procedures. While we try and get shooters accustomed to shooting with a flashlight by having at least one of our stages at the semi-monthly matches in the dark with the flashlight, adding the "competition" factor in may have also contributed to the "stress". I guess we are so programmed after a while to do things in a certain order that we fail to think about what we are doing when something new is added. This is not an inditement of the shooter...just an observation.

Is this match safe? Yes. Can it be made safer? ...Every match can be made safer. We are always looking for ways of improving the match in safety and content.

kj

[richardschennberg]

No reason to pull that SO: he won't make that mistake again!

I believe I can identify the SOs who have proably witnessed an AD during unloading: they stick a finger in the mag well and then look really close at the chamber.

Edited April 17, 2007 by richardschennberg