9mm Vs .40 S&w

[John C from Maryland]

I'm considering buying a CZ 75 TS. They come in 9mm and 40 S&W. The question is which to shoot and why.

Arguments for 9mm:

My background is in Bullseye and I'm an NRA rated expert who shoots Master's scores a bit less than half of the time. With precision shooting, the idea is to use the least recoiling, most accurate bullet/load combination. Recoil leads to flinch, the enemy of accuracy.

9mm is relatively cheap, even if you do not reload. Cheaper than .40 S&W if I buy and probabaly about the same if I reload (compared to 9 mm reloads).

What is the advantage of shooting 40?

What does this "major power," "major caliber" mean in terms of score?

[Guy Neill]

What will you be using the gun for? If a Production gun in USPSA, then everything (as I recall) is scored Minor, meaning the 9mm will be fine.

If you envision shooting in Limited, where Major can be a foactor, the 40 may be the better way to go.

Either are good guns, but the use will be the main determining factor for the cartridge to go with. Factors such as ammunition cost and availability do come into play as well.

Guy

[Matt Griffin]

Here's an analogy: If Bullseye had major and minor scoring, then with a major round, the area outside the ten ring would be worth nine points. With a minor round, the area would only be worth eight points. An X would still be worth 10 for either.

So, it's a question of sacrifice; points on misses vs. recoil. From what you're saying, and your concern over cost, I would strongly suggest that you go with 9mm and participate in the Production division. Equipment costs are lower and there is no distinction between major/minor (it's all scored minor) so you can concentrate on shooting.

H.

[ihatepickles]

John,

Are you going to compete with this pistol? In USPSA?

The TS is a single action only pistol. Since it's SAO, it can't be used in Production division where 9mm Parabellums are most competitive. It's a legal pistol for Limited, Lim-10, and Open. In an Open gun, 9mm can be pushed to make major, but since this is a mass produced pistol I wouldn't attempt it - the gun will dynamically dissemble itself. This leaves Limited and Lim-10. In Lim and L10 the rulebook says a .400 caliber bullet is the minimum bullet diameter that can be used to make major. I hope this is clear, it's a fair abbreviated version of the rules.

The TS is most competitive out of the box in Lim and L10. Major scoring vs minor scoring is a somewhat well played out debate, and over the last 30 years the consensus is that major power factor out scores minor power factor. You can challenge this assertion but it's a steep disadvantage. While minor PF doesn't recoil as much, the shooter must hit all A's or they quickly lose their chance to be competitive.

Paper target scoring:

A zone, 5 points major, 5 points minor

B zone, 4 points major, 3 points minor

C zone, 4 points major, 3 points minor

D zone, 2 points major, 1 point minor

B/C are worth the same, and are only used for tie breakers.

So an example, a classifier with 3 paper and 2 steel (Fluffy's Revenge 1):

A minor PF shooter shoots this course of fire in 3 seconds with 36 of the available points. This is 4 A's, 2 C, and 2 steel. Their hit factor (points divided by time) is 12.

A major PF shooter can shoot the same hits, 4 A's, 2 C, and 2 steel, but they can shoot it in 3.16 seconds and get the exact same HF as the minor shooter since their hits are worth 38 points (vs. the 36 points the minor PF shooter earned). .16 seconds is a typical split time between shots, so the what-ifs begin to illustrate why major PF is so dominant. A good shooter could make up a bad shot in that .16 of a second, so they'd have 39 points instead (5 A's, 1 C, 2 steel). 39 points in 3.16 seconds is a HF of 12.34 which would win the day against the minor PF shooters 12 HF. Or, the shooter could shoot the same hits for 38 points, in the same 3 seconds that the minor PF shooter took, and end up with a HF of 12.66.

So yeah, major makes a difference in the score. In USPSA we're scored by our hit factor (points divided by time) relative to one another.

Edited January 30, 2007 by ihatepickles

[Viggen]

Rather than a CZ TS, maybe look at the CZ SP-01, or CZ 75B. And picking up one in 9mm. One of those two can be run in Production(and be very competitive), Limited, and Limited 10.

Get a good 9mm and learn the game. It is quite a challange for many Bullseye shooters to make the transition into the practical world. It's a different way of looking at things.

And like you mentioned initially, the 9mm is a lot less expensive, whether store bought or reloaded.

Edited January 30, 2007 by Viggen

[thejoe]

ihatepickles,

Thanks for that run down. I, as a newbie, hadn't heard that yet (probably haven't read enough).

I have a question about the definition of SAO. My understanding is that SAO means that the cycling of the action cocks the pistol. If you dryfire that pistol, you must then manually pull the slide back (with an internal hammer, of course) to cock the gun again. With a SAO pistol having an exposed hammer, you must manually pull the hammer back. Is this a correct understanding?

joe

PS to respond to the initial post I would go with .40 as it is a little more versatile than the 9mm. In other words, if you want to use the pistol for something besides competition you can get a wider variety of bullet weights to reload .40 S&W with (all the way from sub 100 gr. to over 200 gr. whereas with 9mm I have only seen between 85 and 150 gr. bullets). Take it with a grain of salt since I'll be the first to admit I'm not extremely experienced with this.

Edited January 31, 2007 by thejoe

[ihatepickles]

I have a question about the definition of SAO. My understanding is that SAO means that the cycling of the action cocks the pistol.

This is true, after each shot a single action pistol recocks itself.

If you dryfire that pistol, you must then manually pull the slide back (with an internal hammer, of course) to cock the gun again.

When you talk about internal hammer, I think you're talking about a striker fired gun like a Glock. Striker guns don't fit into the SAO, DAO, DA/SA mold, they get their own category. If you dry fire a striker fired gun, the only way to reset the striker and prepare to dry fire again would be to cycle the slide. (that's sort of a lie, there are aftermarket kits that will allow you to keep pulling the trigger multiple times for dry fire practice) Strikers guns blur the lines a bit, some striker guns have the striker in a ready to fire position all of the time and some of them sit at a half-cocked state and require more energy from the trigger before they could ignite a primer.

If you dryfire that pistol... ...With a SAO pistol having an exposed hammer, you must manually pull the hammer back.

Sure, a SAO pistol like a 1911 you can pull the hammer back and dry fire again. You could also cycle the slide to recock the hammer. Some pistols, like the Para LDA, don't like being hammer cocked - it can break parts. This isn't an issue on 1911s.

These are tough concepts to type out, if you sit down with an example of each pistol it would only take 5 minutes and the differences would be really obvious.

[Micah]

Here's my take from a USPSA point of view...

I shoot a Glock 34, which is 9mm. Using this gun, I can literally shoot any division with the exception of revo and singe stack. Primarily shooting Production, 9mm provides me with a money saving edge as brass is virtually free, and I only use 3.3 grains of powder for my reloads. Although the bullets that I use (147 grain) are more expensive than lower grain bullets, I have the option of using 115gr bullets and can save even more money. Also, I have no concern for "Glocking" my brass, since the pressures created by my loads are low pressure.

I have shot Limited and L10 minor with good success, and a friend of mine (Chris Keen) has won high overall at State matches shooting minor. I can get 24 rounds in my gun without a reload using 9mm.

That being said, if saving a few cents per round is not your concern, and if you reload, shooting 40 may just be your best bet. You can create loads that are minor power factor for Production that are as soft as a .22, or work them up to make major power factor for the other divisions. Decisions, decisions

Edited January 31, 2007 by Pharaoh Bender

[Spaceghost]

ihavepickles,

Thanks, that is a very good explanation and I'm going through the same type decision process as John. I think Pharaoh's point of the price of brass and reduced reloads might sway me to the 9mm side however.

The only other deciding issue pertains to the steel that you assumed we knocked down in the classifier... I hate standing there thinking did I hit it square, should I call for a calibration...

[Viggen]

ihavepickles,

Thanks, that is a very good explanation and I'm going through the same type decision process as John. I think Pharaoh's point of the price of brass and reduced reloads might sway me to the 9mm side however.

The only other deciding issue pertains to the steel that you assumed we knocked down in the classifier... I hate standing there thinking did I hit it square, should I call for a calibration...

It sort of depends about asking for a calibration. Most of the time, steel doesn't go down because of bad hits or wind or puff loads. With a 9mm,IMO, load to a nice 130-135 power factor and you are generally assured of taking things down, regardless. And that PF range is gentle to shoot but gives a bit better knock down than a 126 PF. Don't try to slice to thin on what you are allowed to do, remember that we are shooting in the real world and things don't always work when cutting it too close. Or hit it square again, as needed.

As you gain experience it will become obvious to you when a calibration should be called for.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Viggen

[ihatepickles]

Spaceghost,

If you're shooting Production division, by all means shoot a 9mm - it's the caliber for Production which is only scored minor power factor regardless of what cartridge you shoot. If you shoot full house 230gr ball .45 ammo in Production, you'll only get credit for minor power factor hits so you're absorbing all that recoil for no particular benefit.

If you're shooting Limited or Limited 10, your targets can be scored major if the .400"+ bullet is traveling fast enough. The division you shoot makes a difference.

As far as whether to ask for calibration on steel, if you can't call your shot and really know where you hit the steel without looking for bullet impacts then you're better off always reengaging the steel. If you can't say for sure in your mind that you hit in the calibration zone of the steel, you're probably going to lose your calibration appeal.

While a lot people point out that a major power factor round is more likely to knock down steel, the rules say a 125 pf 9mm that hits the scoring disc must knock over the steel or the shooter can ask for calibration. Steel isn't a recognized standard of power factor by the USPSA rules, only paper rewards power according to the rules.

Production shooters tend to be really sensitive to steel calibration talks, we take a beating on this topic. I shoot Production.

[Micah]

It sort of depends about asking for a calibration. Most of the time, steel doesn't go down because of bad hits or wind or puff loads. With a 9mm,IMO, load to a nice 130-135 power factor and you are generally assured of taking things down, regardless. And that PF range is gentle to shoot but gives a bit better knock down than a 126 PF. Don't try to slice to thin on what you are allowed to do, remember that we are shooting in the real world and things don't always work when cutting it too close. Or hit it square again, as needed.

As you gain experience it will become obvious to you when a calibration should be called for.

+10! If you declaire major and chrono at 164.9, then you are bumped to minor. If you chrono 124.9...you shoot for fun (and no score!) It's not worth panicking over the chrono stage of all stages...don't play the 125.1 game.

[Merlin Orr]

Lots of good stuff above...! IMHO.

One thing is certain. Which ever you purchase you will immediately decide you simply MUST have one of the other caliber.

I would buy the .40 first as you can download to play in the classes/divisions that do not require the "heavier' loads of a .40 but you can't up the diameter of a 9 mm to make it legal in the classes that specify .40 as the minimum caliber.

[Lee Bell]

9mm is relatively cheap, even if you do not reload. Cheaper than .40 S&W if I buy and probabaly about the same if I reload (compared to 9 mm reloads).

Others ahve already posted that the gun you're looking at is most competitive in Limited and Limited 10 divisions and how major and minor power factors effect scoring in those divisions. I shoot Single Stack and Limited 10 and chose the .40 specifically because it qualifies for major PF and, better still, it does it without excessive pressures.

In my experience, the cost of 9mm and .40, for those of us that reload, is pretty close. If either has an advantage, it's probably 9mm only because factory rounds are cheap enough that fewer people reload them, making once fired brass readily available, often for free. On the other hand, with so many law enforcement agencies shooting them, .40 caliber brass is also pretty easy to come by.

Lee

[stubbicatt]

9mm is relatively cheap, even if you do not reload. Cheaper than .40 S&W if I buy and probabaly about the same if I reload (compared to 9 mm reloads).

Others ahve already posted that the gun you're looking at is most competitive in Limited and Limited 10 divisions and how major and minor power factors effect scoring in those divisions. I shoot Single Stack and Limited 10 and chose the .40 specifically because it qualifies for major PF and, better still, it does it without excessive pressures.

In my experience, the cost of 9mm and .40, for those of us that reload, is pretty close. If either has an advantage, it's probably 9mm only because factory rounds are cheap enough that fewer people reload them, making once fired brass readily available, often for free. On the other hand, with so many law enforcement agencies shooting them, .40 caliber brass is also pretty easy to come by.

Lee

.

Man. I don't know where you are buying your components, but bullets alone for the .40 are in the $80 to $100 range per M, and 9mm is in the $50 range, brass, powder, and primer being relatively the same between them. If a body practices at all, these expenses begin to add up. The 9mm production class is a lot of fun, and the least expensive to shoot.

Some folks are serious competitors, and for them the game is different from those who come to shoot for fun and to improve their skills on an occasional basis. I guess it would behove you to figure out which you are and do that for awhile.

Personally, I think the advice to shoot production is good advice, at least for a year or until such time as you determine that it is the competition rather than the skills improvement that you seek.

FWIW.

[chrisjohn]

I went through the exact same decision matrix when transitioning from shooting only Bullseye style to USPSA matches. Initially for cost, the 9x19 swayed me as there are a lot of double stack 9x19 platforms out there, brass is free. Shot several different pistols and liked the CZ the best, with the XD being a close second, the low barrel to frame axis combined with lower felt recoil was the clincher for me, the CZ was a little cheaper too. Bought a CZ SP01, while I’ve been extremely happy with it, I recently bought a CZ STD IPSC, which is a TS with an adjustable rear sight. Haven’t gotten a chance to shoot it yet as the slide is off at Virgil Tripp’s getting cobra coated, but have high hopes for the platform.

Production is well, production. The guns just aren’t as sweet, the trigger pull particularly. My SP01 was worked over by Matt Mink, and it’s less than 2 lbs, but not everyone has someone like him local and there is still that huge amount of take up even in SA mode. To be honest, I missed the feel of a single action trigger, hence the TS, and had the desire to shoot limited at major power factor.

I’m rambling. If you reload get the .40, if you don’t get the 9x19. Angus Hobdell says he’s getting TS top ends from CZ, so you may be able to do both on one frame soon.

[Lee Bell]

I get my brass for free for both calibers. Last time I checked, I could get 1,000 LSWC bullets for $38 from Space Coast Bullets in Melborne, Florida. They're not on the internet. I'd have to find my price sheet to be sure that's the price for .40's, but I'm positive that's what I paid for 185 grain .45s and 158 grain .357s. I paid more than that what you quoted for JHPs, even in 9mm.

Personally, I think the advice to shoot production is good advice, at least for a year or until such time as you determine that it is the competition rather than the skills improvement that you seek.

Opinions vary and yours is as good as anyone's. The competition in production here in S. Florida is significant. There are some very good, very frequent shooters in that division specifically because they don't want to reload and they can shoot 9mm for less than any other USPSA legal caliber. I do reload and much prefer single action guns, making my Single Stack .40 pretty much the ideal gun for me in either Single Stack or Limited 10.

Lee