IPSC in an IDPA market

[j1b]

Need some advice guys (and gals)

I live in NW Arkansas and truly IDPA is about the only game in town up here. There's a lot of it - but there is no IPSC.

So there's a guys who just built a new range and he's contemplating setting up an IPSC match. His questions are basically as follows:

1) Is there a market for it - doesn't know many IPSC shooters in the area

2) Will the IDPA shooters invest any more to be able to shoot IPSC. Will they be willing to change formats?

3) Will they be willing to pay more for the club fee's/ classifier fees?

4) Will politics play into range support if IPSC invades the heart of IDPA land?

5) Even if the IDPA shooter are willing to shoot - will they invest any time in coming to the range to shoot IPSC when they already leave the family alone a night or two a week?

Any thoughts????? I know my opinion - but I also know what I want him to do. That would tend to make me biased.

Thanks all!

JB

[Jake Di Vita]

I started with shooting IDPA and only fairly recently begam shooting IPSC. I know what I thought of IPSC before and after I started shooting it, so I will try to help the best I can.

1) If the shooters truly enjoy shooting as much as the vast majority of the people on this forum, then I guarantee there will be a market for it.

2) This question is sort of the an "If you build it they will come" situation. Personally I am always willing to change formats as you can never be truly well-rounded with only shooting one thing.

3) The costs around here aren't too bad, usually not more than $20 or $25 a match for both IDPA and IPSC. I'm sure a couple more bucks won't make people turn away.

4) Since I shot exclusively IDPA for about 10 months and never even went to watch an IPSC match, I was bombarded with a lot of propaganda, such as, IPSC shooters are fast but can't hit anything. Thankfully, many fellow IDPA shooters also shoot IPSC and clarified many things for me. I'm sure an experienced shooter (you) will be able to answer all sorts of questions to anyone that hasn't already shot it has to ask.

5) Unless there is a huge abundancy of matches around, I'm sure people will come to one more. As it is right now, all this season I shot 4 matches a month, two IDPA and two IPSC. If I had the opportunity, I would have shot more.

Hope this helps.

Jake

[Flexmoney]

The range I consider my "home range" is about the only USPSA range in the area...lots of IDPA around it (couple of the "founding fathers" in the area).  It is doing just fine.

People like good stages and well run matches.  No attitude.  We are all shooters.  

[vluc]

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Quote: from Flexmoney on 9:30 pm on Oct. 19, 2002

People like good stages and well run matches.  No attitude.  We are all shooters.  

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There it is....Flex nailed it...a perfect double!  If the folks where you are are shooters, then it will make no difference.

[Bill]

j1b,

This is a tough one. Location has a lot to do with it. I live in eastern Ohio which is IDPA country. Western OH is USPSA. Flex's home range is right in the middle and gets several "crossover" shooters. This is a new club. Most people shoot Limited or Limited 10. Few shoot open. I don't want to hurt any feelings, but I don't notice many of the top scorers in their respective sports crossing over. IPSC & IDPA are the same but just enough different to make it hard to excell in both. (just because TGO does it doesn't mean we all can)

Here are my answers by number.

1. You will have to ask local shooters if they will come. Do you now attend local IDPA matches & will some of the shooters follow you to dabble in IPSC?

2. Some will buy 10 round mags & shoot limited 10, others will shoot production. I doubt you will have many open shooters. You might have several revolver shooters. Stage design is the key. If the shooters have fun they will come back.

3. Keep the match fee as close to local IDPA fees as possible. It was a little sticker shock for me when I shot my first USPSA match after shooting only IDPA for 6 years.

4. Yes.

5. Timing. Around here most matches are on weekends & everybody works together to schedule matches to not interfere with other clubs. Each club has one match a month. You will HAVE to schedule your matches on dates when nobody else is shooting.

Good Luck. We need to stick together as shooters.

Bill Nesbitt

[Al Capizzo]

I think whether a USPSA club can make it depends how many shooters are in the area.  I shoot at a Range in Tyler, Tx. (pop. about 70,000) that supports both types of matches, with roughly the same number of local shooters turning out, about 20. The USPSA club also picks up another 6-10 shooters from Dallas and Shrevesport, both about 1.5 to 2 hours away, but the IDPA club is strictly local. For whatever reason, there are only one or two shooters who shoot both IDPA and IPSC.

Another club I shoot at each month, with a great range and experienced shooters (in Lufkin, Tx) is lucky to have 15 or 16 shooters each month.  I don't think an IDPA club would do any better.  Its a largely rural area, everyone shoots, but nobody is interested in any type of competition.

[Al Capizzo]

I just had an idea. NW Arkansas, isn't that Bill Wilson country?  Maybe you can get Bill to come out and help promote the new IPSC club! Uh, well, maybe not.

[j1b]

Nail on the head Al. Bill is about 30 minutes away - hence the politics of the situation.

I'm not certain what to suggest to my friend. I want the IPSC club for purely selfish reasons. He has a business to run and I would never suggest that he do something that was not in the best interest of his business.

In the end I am certain I know what the right answer is however you guys have often times provided insights into situations that I've not looked at.

In essence I'm hoping for a logical reason to run the IPSC match. Truly right now I don't believe it is the thing to do. I just want it to be the thing to do.

JB

[Flexmoney]

JB,

Think... Opportunity!  It is a challenge, not somewhere you "don't want to go".  

Push Limited10 and Production.  Be Proactive.  Dispel IPSC myths from the start.

[EricW]

Jack,

I think your biggest obstacle is overcoming the IDPA / ignorant gun rag / crybaby ex-competitor propaganda machine.  The disinformation kept me away from IPSC for nearly a decade.  I didn't even bother to go *see* a match because I was so sure I couldn't compete, wouldn't like it, wouldn't be welcome, and would learn "dangerous" habits.  Fortunately, some good people cajoled me into taking the plunge.  

You've got some serious cajoling to do there mister....  Now get to it!

E

(Edited by EricW at 9:01 pm on Oct. 20, 2002)

[Al Capizzo]

Jack,

If you and the range owner feel that there are a sufficient number of shooters that might even try IPSC, then I think all you can do is form a club and see what happens.

I would plan on giving the club a year to get going, but really, what is there to lose?

It can even be done using the USPSA rules and courses of fire without joining USPSA for the first couple times.

I say go for it.

And you should probably shoot an Airweight Smith the first couple matches so as not to intimidate people.

[Bill]

Jack,

I went to the USPSA web site & there are several USPSA clubs listed in Arkansas, 2 or 3 around Fort Smith. Around here a lot of people drive 2 hours or more to shoot. Depending on the exact location I don't see a big problem starting another USPSA club if it doesn't interfere with existing matches, IDPA or USPSA. Can you travel to some of the local USPSA matches and see who would travel to your new club? Any business venture is a gamble. Go for it. Around here rural areas seem to draw more shooters than ranges near big cities.

Bill Nesbitt

[j1b]

Well . . . I guess we'll put a plan together and see what we can get cooking. I'm not adverse to the challenge - just all the BS that goes w/ the challenge.

I will however be utilizing the .40 in lim-10 Al. I haven't shot an IPSC match in years - somehow I think I'll look like a bumbling idiot out there.

Of course I do plan to hit the Lim-10 nats next year - so I guess I'd better get my mud together.

Thanks!

JB

[Duane Thomas]

EricW,

For all the people who've registered the (valid) complaint there are so few pro-IPSC articles in the popular gun press, let me give you a heads-up:

In the next few months, I've got a piece on the Factory Nats in Dillon's Blue Press. There's an article on the new divisions (Lim-10, Production, Revolver) coming up in Gun World; a few months later in the same magazine you'll be seeing a full feature piece on the Factory Nats. The photo package for that BTW came out GREAT - Kerby Smith from Para-Ordnance, Roger Maier from USPSA, and Grand Master Bruce Gray all contributed photos, in addition to your 'umble servant here. I have an article on USPSA Production class currently sitting at Blue Press, and another article on the same topic just went in, on spec, to Handguns. What else? Oh, a year or so ago I had a piece in Gun World titled "Why You Should Shoot IPSC."

That should keep you guys entertained, at least for a little while.

[Duane Thomas]

"1) Is there a market for it - doesn't know many IPSC shooters in the area"

They're there. As has already been pointed out, course design and professionalism of the ROs is key. Put together good courses of fire, run by courteous, knowledgeable ROs, and people will flock to the matches.

"2) Will the IDPA shooters invest any more to be able to shoot IPSC. Will they be willing to change formats?"

Yes. The rules aren't THAT different. AAMOF the rules in USPSA are much more permissive, and less challenging to learn, than IDPA.

"3) Will they be willing to pay more for the club fee's/ classifier fees?"

Do they need to? I've never heard of classifier fees - could you educate me? Every match I've ever shot just included a classifier stage in the match you paid to shoot. In general I'd say, and this has also already been mentioned, just keep your prices close to - ideally identical - to what the IDPA guys are charging.

"4) Will politics play into range support if IPSC invades the heart of IDPA land?"

Oh yeah. Not an insurmountable problem, though probably a pain in the ass. If you want to do this, just know this is going to happen going in, and it'll bother you a lot less.

"5) Even if the IDPA shooter are willing to shoot - will they invest any time in coming to the range to shoot IPSC when they already leave the family alone a night or two a week?"

Oh YES. If you ran matches every Saturday and Sunday of the week, there are guys who'd be out there shooting every single one of them. All people want is a chance to shoot. And there are a lot of people out there who don't really care what they're shooting: IDPA, USPSA/IPSC, ICORE, whatever....people just want to shoot. "If you build it, they will come," indeed.

[EricW]

DT,

Great News!   BTW - Did anyone see the new ad for the Winchester X2 in this issue of American Hunter?  It references Pat Kelley's split time testing in.... *FRONT SIGHT*!!!!    That was a nice little morale booster (considering how the NRA will hardly acknowledge USPSA's existence - I'm amazed that it made it into print).  I hope Pat is flattered.  Nice work!

There's a lot of good signs lately that IPSC/USPSA is headed in the right direction.  I think you and the other writers really deserve a big pat on the back for it.  Mike Voight surely deserves a raise for his tireless efforts.  All this will add up to making Jack's promotion work easier.

E

[Duane Thomas]

In the NRA's new manual on handgun training which is only a little over a year old, they of course talk about NRA bull's-eye matches but also mention something to the effect of "there are several other handgun competition sports such as IPSC and IDPA." This is ground breaking stuff. In the rear of the manual they have a list of suggested books that reads like a Who's Who of the real heavy hitters: Cooper, Jordan, Applegate, Ayoob. They even screwed up and put my book in there. I've been told that manual was put together primarily by Stanton Wormsley. I've always meant to call him up and thank him for that.