No-Shoot placement

[JFD]

I'm designing stages for my 2003 match director debut, but have only a year's worth of IPSC experience (I've shot IDPA and combo type matches for 4 years).

A few questions:

It seems like nearly each target array in the matches I've shot require 6 rounds before moving on to the next.  I'm looking at requiring 8 rounds as I don't feel the need to cater to the one revolver shooter who sometimes shows up.  Is this going to violate some kind of unwritten USPSA notion or anything?  I believe it's good to go as far as the written rules are concerned.

I don't personally like targets covered up by no-shoots.  I think of this as "hostage placement" and not overly realistic if one wants to look at it in such a way.  I prefer "crowd placement", where very few of the shoot targets in an array will be visible as the shooter moves toward it, but will appear as he continues to move past it (not quite "past" it, but you get the idea).  I've been experimenting with this and found that while it takes a little more set-up room, it's not that difficult to avoid setting up some kind of "180 trap", which is not what I want to do.  Is this some kind of oddball thinking on my part?  Will shooters at the higher levels think this is too easy?  Personally I think having all targets visible, even if most of them are covered with no-shoots is roughly the same, but sort of boring.  Again, my lack of experience could be a factor in this.

If I want to make the shot more difficult, I favor hard cover, even though I'm not about to totally abandon no-shoots in the typical "hostage placement".

I also tend to favor longer shots to increase the challenge, using the full length of my available bays with at least one array if I can.

Since this will be a local club match, I wonder if I would be out of line if I threw in the occasional bowling pin, clay pigeon, or reduced size USPSA target to simulate longer range?  

My last question is sort of stupid.  I have two target stands that have a steel plate at the head and "A" zone if a USPSA target is placed in it (in front of the plates).  When either of the plates are hit, the thing will fall backwards, exposing a target placed behind it, activating something else, or both.  I have no idea what this thing is called, beyond referring to it as a falling plate.  Surely this thing has a more accurate name.

While I can just "steal" stages off of the web that will keep me going for quite some time, I'd like to throw in some original designs for one or two of my stages each match.

Personally speaking, I'll be glad when the first couple of matches or so  next year are over.  I'll have a much better idea of what's what.

[Rich Bagoly]

"I'm looking at requiring 8 rounds as I don't feel the need to cater to the one revolver shooter who sometimes shows up."

Would you be proud if he stopped showing up?  It sounds like you are trying to up the round count by just adding targets.  This is one of my major peeves.  It's a good way to ruin an otherwise fine stage.  Using the fixed size arrays is poor stage design.  They have had some good stages at the Nationals the last couple of years.  Check them out.

"I prefer "crowd placement", where very few of the shoot targets in an array will be visible as the shooter moves toward it, but will appear as he continues to move past it"

I am not real clear on what you intend.  Your goal sounds great, but the devil is in the details.  No-shoots are stapled to the targets mostly to avoid "shoot throughs".  If a bullet makes a full diameter hole on any target, no-shoot, or hard cover, you can't  count score on targets, or no-shoots that it may later hit.  A good stage won't have targets placed so that one round might strike more than one target.  It can be a nightmare to line up the holes, and properly score a stage where shoot throughs are encountered

"Since this will be a local club match, I wonder if I would be out of line if I threw in the occasional bowling pin, clay pigeon, or reduced size USPSA target to simulate longer range?"

You can't go wrong by staying within the rules.  If they don't complain about illegal stages to you, they will bitch about it behind your back.

"Personally speaking, I'll be glad when the first couple of matches or so  next year are over."

Don't get uptight.  Everything won't come out the way you want it.  Sometimes it will accidentally be better.  Remember why most of us shoot, and that you are allowed to have a good time too.  The surest way to have a bad match is to take the fun out of it.

[shred]

Think about hard-cover on targets too.. takes more work & paint, but they're both easier on the new shooters and surprisingly challenging even when placed close (for some reason shooters that whine about a full target at 25 yards don't complain near as much about an A-zone-only hard cover target at 7 yards)

[Jake Di Vita]

Try to make the stages as freestyle as possible, stage design makes or destroys a match. Don't worry about catering to the needs of any one division, if you don't go more than 8 rounds per array, you're doing good.

I agree with shred, good placement of hard cover can create difficult shots without causing a lot of complaining. I also have a problem with placing no shoots whenever you want to make a target difficult.

Try to balance DVC in your stages. The proper stage will test the shooter's ability to make difficult shots and easier quick shots.

You may take this all with a grain of salt as I don't have near the experience of others on this forum.

[Shooter Grrl]

The one thing that stuck with me about the Nationals stages was the target placement.  My local clubs ALL clump together targets - either 3 or 4, depending on which club... but at the Nationals, they were mostly all single targets, occasionally there were 2 stacked, but not that many!    They did also have a couple of groups of 3 targets, but again, I can only picture that twice in the whole match!!!!

So my suggestion to you is to use mostly single targets, with a couple of them stacked and a FEW "arrays".  Made for really challenging, but FUN shooting.

[Firewitch]

What I've noticed about shooting here in the US is that the way the targets are set up vary from area to area. Shooter Grrl, am I right in guessing that you're from the West Coast? I haven't shot AWARE this year but I heard from a lot of people that the match was difficult with tight shots and all. There is a rule in the IPSC to be "single stack" friendly and setting up stages with no more than 9 shots per shooting position. I think that is quite ideal. It just depends on the match designer how to arrange the targets and whether or not to sprinkle some no-shoots and hardcover in it.

Nationals had some pretty good designs. I would have preferred if they had some more 16 round medium courses, though

[Ron Ankeny]

First off, stay within the rules. If you are holding an "approved" match complete with classifier, you will need to toss any illegal stages out of the match when you calculate the results. Why use targets that aren't approved when you know it is wrong? If you want tough shots, make some of the 6 inch squares and 8 inch circles. You can also ditch the idea of most of the paper set at 5 feet. Mix it up with plenty of up and down pistol movement and various target shapes and sizes and your A-GM shooters will love the challenge.

Our shooters really like the idea of no more than 9 rounds required form any position (with the exception of standard exercises). We try to make stages that are all shot as the targets appear, but it's tough to do that. Instead, we place as many props and vision barriers around as we can and make shooting areas. We always try to include a short wall, some ports, shooting through a barrel, a swinger or two, and a drop turner somewhere along the line. People like variety. Good luck.

[Duane Thomas]

Ron, Firewitch,

I was under the impression the rule was no more than 8 shots from any one position.

[Rich Bagoly]

Duane, I hear lots of misunderstanding on this one.

USPSA-Can't require more than 8 shots/position.

IPSC-Can't allow more than 9 shots/position.

[Ron Ankeny]

Duane:

You are correct and I meant 8, but the original post is IPSC not USPSA.

[Firewitch]

Duane,

You're right....8 shots per position...

Now to make that 8 REALLY interesting to shoot..... (is entirely up to the imagination!)

[JFD]

While I wouldn't exactly be proud to drive away our only revolver shooter, I'm sick of shooting 6 round arrays specifically for him when he shows up around 3 times per year.  Even then it's common for him to not finish a couple of stages because he runs out of ammo.  I'd rather have the freedom to go with 6 - 8 shots if I feel the urge, still keeping 8 round mags practical most of the time for those who want to use them.

I like to shoot, and consider reloading a good thing, so for sure I'll up the round count if I can.   I'm taking this MD position a LOT sooner than I wanted to just to keep USPSA alive at our club, so you better believe I'm going to make sure I'm at least going to get to shoot a lot in between scoring, ROing, and putting up with folks who act like I'm getting paid to do this.

I've only set up one stage with the "crowd placement", but found that it wasn't too hard to prevent shoot throughs.  It does require extra thought though and attention to not making a "180 trap".  My main problem with "hostage placement" is that I'm sick of seeing it all the time and I'm sort of hoping that finding a different twist in my stages might just be a good thing for our current shooters.

My main understanding of what to avoid is having to stop to shoot, so what I want to accomplish with "crowd placement" is to have a more narrow "window of visibility" available.  When I can see all the targets, then I can take the easier shots initially, then take those head shots or whatever as I get closer to the targets.  With crowd placement, the shooter will not have the option of choosing which target to shoot, as it won't be visible until he's almost on it, then a no-shoot will block the possibility of breaking the 180.  If a person can't shoot fast on the move, then he's going to have to slow down his forward motion to deal with it.  this would seem to reward better shooters while being harder for folks like me.  This will mainly be used on stages where the shooter runs past the arrays.

"Hostage placement" is still OK, but I won't use it 100% unless my "crowd" plan stinks.

I agree with hard cover and plan on using it a good bit.

I don't guess I've seen any stages using single targets that I can remember, although I can see where one of my bays may work OK with that.  

I am trying to add variety.  I never want to have a person shoot an array from one position, only to find themselves shooting an identical array at the next position.  

My main worry is that my stages will be viewed as too easy, scaring off the shooters I already have.  

I set up a stage last month that I wasn't overly fond of, but I had little time to prepare.  I didn't get to shoot the match due to my work schedule but noticed from the results that only 1 person had a penalty.  Maybe that was too easy, but I really don't know if that's a good way to judge a stage.

My stupid inflexible work schedule has me working the final matches of this year, which were supposed to be my "trial and error" matches.  Missing them means my confidence level for the January "season opener" match is LOW.  We already have fairly low attendence and I'd hate to make it worse.  

Right now I have to design and set up 2 stages for the November match that I'm not going to be able to shoot, so I won't be able to judge shooter reaction.

I appreciate the help and don't feel that I'll screw up too bad.

I'll toss those illegal target ideas into "file 13", or save some of them for the rifle and/or shotgun stages I'd like to do in the future.

[shred]

Very rarely have I heard shooters complain of a stage being "too easy"-- 10 times more often you hear "too hard" or "too mental" or "too much running" or whatver they don't like to do.  Stand-and-hose, everybody can do.  

Shooters may gripe if the whole match is nothing but wide-open 2-yard targets, but one stage usually doesn't do it.

[JFD]

That's good to hear.  Thanks