Approved Steel ?

[Flexmoney]

Really, short of this nationals and these poppers, is this that big of a problem? Would we even have this discussion if they were "normal" backward falling poppers?

We had similar issues last year in Barry...with backward falling poppers.

If you want to see the issues with steel, then follow the Minor shooting Production Super Squad around. Or, in this case, the Production B Squad...as the A Squad was a stage behind us. A whole squad full of top shooters...all shooting minor...all wanting their placement in the match to be reflected by their shooting...when the steel is sub-standard, it shows up quick.

[Gary Johnson]

The poppers in Tulsa use a hook mounted at a fixed point on the base. There is no mechanical adjuster. There is a bolt behind the panel but it is an overtravel stop. The only way to adjust them is to tip the base.

The hooks on the large poppers are spring loaded. If you hit the panel hard enough to unseat it, the hook snaps open and the popper falls. The relative proximity of the hook to the pivot makes the large popper very sensitive to changes in pitch. A small change in pitch produces a large change in the amount of force needed to unseat it.

The minis have no spring. They use the rearward travel of the panel to push the hook to the side. They aren't as sensitive to pitch but they have to move back far enough to displace the hook and still be leaning forward enough to fall.

The poppers on my stage (15) worked flawlessly but that's because we went around and made sure they were level and set the overtravel stops. I kept a close eye on them throughout the match.

It's been my experience that most poppers are set light to prevent reshoots. If you set poppers so it takes 125PF to knock them down you will see lots of calibrations and lots of reshoots.

I've never done any formal measurement but I would guess the typical popper adjusted by 'feel'. is around 80-100PF. The Tulsa poppers were probably a lot higher. Some were probably around 125 hence the endless calibrations and reshoots.

[BDH]

From the staff point of view...

No one likes inconsistent props. Not competitors... not RO's... not RM's... NO ONE!!! IMO, anything we can do to insure consistent performance should be considered.

As for clubs having to replace all their steel if USPSA came up with an 'approved' popper, I would think that the way to handle that would be similar to US 1.1.5.1 (Level 1 matches are not required to comply strictly...). That way clubs could move to the 'approved' design as they acquired or replaced steel.

I think the big cost would probably be on USPSA because they would have to help fund 'approved' steel for a Nationals match instead of using club steel...

My $0.02 worth...

Brian Hanna - CRO Stage 13

ps. on Shred's comment about RM's showing up with a scoped TC in 9 mm, the next time I work a match as RM, I will be showing up with my scoped 9mm Beretta CX4 Storm!

[mactiger]

I have a scoped, 4", TC in 9mm. It works well.

Gary gave an excellent explanation of the poppers at Tulsa. Most, but not all, of the calibration shots I made were for edge hits on the mini poppers. The poppers were received basically "in the white", and were not sandblasted or anything prior to being painted, so even a very slight edge hit looked significant--lots of paint flaked off.

Action Targets is working the many problems we noted with their steel and other targets.

The ground played a significant part in the problems we had, as well. Sod over hard packed clay is not a good combination.

BTW, I shot every single popper on the front set of bays every morning. They all went down with the first shot. The ammo I was using, handloaded 147 gr. JHP 9mm, made PF's between 125.5 and 126.7 each day. John's ammo did the same and we were both using Glock 17's. His trigger is lighter than mine.

Troy

Edited October 17, 2006 by mactiger

[omnia1911]

It is ludicrous that IPSC would have approved steel target designs, require the steel to fall to score, use falling steel targets to measure power factors, but not have any requirement on the mechanism that supports and assists the steel target in its fall.

The days of using falling steel targets to measure power factors has long since past. The game will not suffer if this relic goes away.

Matters that should be classified as equipment failure are negatively effecting match play, when it comes to poppers. Defective mechanisms that activate moving paper targets are REF. Falling steel targets should be treated the same.

[driver8M3]

If we're going to measure power via the chrono, all steel should fall when hit squarely in the "calibration" zone regardless. If a shooter continually has a problem, he needs more ammo drawn and needs to be rechronoed. Otherwise, solid hits on steel that don't drop the popper should be range equipment malfunction...

If we're going to measure PF w/ steel, what do we need the chrono for?? (of course, then we're measuring energy, and not momentum, so... that's why the minor .40s didn't drop steel as well, BTW...).

using steel as a measure of PF just seems dumb. who are we going to catch with this? if someone is shooting major, but cheating with some non-major ammo, even their lighter ammo will take down every popper they come across. if you're shooting minor, there's virtually no reason to cheat. minor is pretty soft stuff whether you're at 120 or 135 PF. i would guess that of the PF cheaters out there, almost all of them shoot major.

the chrono is there to measure PF. if we're worried that there are some cheaters using lighter ammo everywhere but chrono, maybe we should be a little more thoughtful about when we pull chrono ammo. stage 1 of a 4-day, 18-stage match might not be the best time.

[omnia1911]

We are allowed to have moving targets. If the movement mechanism malfunctions we get a re-shoot. Both paper (drop turner, swinger) and metal plate (Texas star) targets can be moving. There is no rule against a moving popper. If I shoot at a moving popper and get a good hit on it, but it fails to fall, can I challenge as REF the functionality of the moving mechanism as the reason for it not falling, or am I subject the calibration rule only?

If your answer is that I can challenge the moving mechanism, then why isn't a non-moving mechanism that supports a popper subject to REF too?

The fact the a RM can knock the popper down during a calibration challenge only proves that the popper can fall from his hit. It doesn't explain with certainty why it wouldn't fall for the competitor. The hit and impulse from from the competitor's round on the popper may have "fixed" the problem without knocking the popper over, which in turn allowed the RM's round to knock the popper over.

[LPatterson]

In reading through Appendix C1, item 5 "For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within the calibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. USPSA did not chose to amend this rule. USPSA did however amend/replace 7(a) with US7(a) to include [on or below] for scoring a miss and US7( [anywhere on the frontal surface] for awarding a reshoot.

So if the person doing the recalibration hits the popper at the top of the upper circle and the popper falls then the shooter gets a miss but if the shot hits an inch above the pivot and the popper doesn't fall then the shooter gets a reshoot because the person doing the recalibration screwed up.

Perhaps it is time consider/reconsider what it is poppers are for and why we are shooting at them.

[Flexmoney]

The fact the a RM can knock the popper down during a calibration challenge only proves that the popper can fall from his hit. It doesn't explain with certainty why it wouldn't fall for the competitor. The hit and impulse from from the competitor's round on the popper may have "fixed" the problem without knocking the popper over, which in turn allowed the RM's round to knock the popper over.

Very good point.

[No.343]

I'm pretty new to this sport, so my question is pretty ignorant. Why have poppers at all? Why not just shoot plates the size of the main area of the popper? Other than activating other props I don't see the advantage. I shot round, square and diamond shaped plates that seem much more challenging to hit than poppers.

[mscott]

I've only seen 2 targets challenged and both fell. It seems to be a loosing proposition. With some mechanisms it seems the first bullet could almost trip it, but then the second bullet doesn't have to push nearly as hard and finishes the job. Some guys also say use factory ammo to callibrate, but 9mm WWB goes about 140PF and that is probably the most common factory ammo around. Life just isn't fair sometimes.

[omnia1911]

When you challenge a popper that doesn't fall, you aren't challenging the legality of the target, the accuracy of the hit on the target's scoring/calibration zone, or the laws of gravity. What you are challenging is the mechanism that supports and allows the popper to fall; a mechanism whose design is neither officially approved of, or standardized in the rule book. Bad idea.

[GeorgeInNePa]

It is ludicrous that IPSC would have approved steel target designs, require the steel to fall to score, use falling steel targets to measure power factors, but not have any requirement on the mechanism that supports and assists the steel target in its fall.

The days of using falling steel targets to measure power factors has long since past. The game will not suffer if this relic goes away.

Matters that should be classified as equipment failure are negatively effecting match play, when it comes to poppers. Defective mechanisms that activate moving paper targets are REF. Falling steel targets should be treated the same.

Mark this date down, I agree agree with omnia1911.

[BDH]

Some guys also say use factory ammo to callibrate, but 9mm WWB goes about 140PF and that is probably the most common factory ammo around.

FWIW, unless I am completely mistaken, both John and Troy were using reloads that ran at around 127 PF. Not trying to pick a fight, but wanted to be clear on the point that what they were shooting was within 5% of 125 PF.....

[caps]

When you challenge a popper that doesn't fall, you aren't challenging the legality of the target, the accuracy of the hit on the target's scoring/calibration zone, or the laws of gravity. What you are challenging is the mechanism that supports and allows the popper to fall; a mechanism whose design is neither officially approved of, or standardized in the rule book. Bad idea.

I thought forward poppers are used to eliminate the mechanism from the equation?

[omnia1911]

1) Does US4.3.1.5 contradict the idea of having Appendix C1 Calibration of Poppers?

US4.3.1.5

Metal targets

must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways

or

which fail to fall

or overturn when hit, or which a Range

Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the

apparatus supporting them or for any other reason,

will be

treated as range equipment failure.

(see Rule 4.6.1).

“Metal targets” would suggest both plates and poppers are referred to in the rule.

2) IPSC poppers must be calibrated (4.3.1.1). Does that include penalty poppers that are designed to fall?

3) What is the “scoring area” of a metal target, as referred to in 9.4.3? Unlike paper targets, metal targets don’t have scoring lines and non-scoring borders.

4) Can I lodge a calibration challenge on a penalty popper?

Here is the scenario: I’m having a bad run. I shoot at a penalty popper that is designed to fall, but it fails to do so. I’m thinking I will receive the scoring penalty whether the popper falls or not (9.4.3), IPSC poppers must be calibrated (4.3.1.1), metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score (US4.3.1.5), and if during a calibration challenge the popper fails to fall from the RMs hit in the calibration zone, I should get a reshoot (Appendix C1). Or, would I get a reshoot according to US4.3.1.5 based on REF?

Penalty metal targets do have “scoring areas” (9.4.3). Therefore, a hit on a penalty metal target is considered a score, albeit a negative one.

5) From Appendix C1:

3.

Once the supply of ammunition and the designated handguns have been

tested and approved by the Range Master, they are not subject to challenge

by competitors

.

The rule says that the chrono ammo used in a calibration challenge has to be tested and approved by the RM. A round isn't "tested", and its power factor known with certainty, until it has been fired across the chrono. How do we know the actual round that the RM fires at the popper makes the required specs (+/- 5% of 125PF)? Shouldn't we be firing the calibration round across the chrono at the same time as the popper calibration is made?

As a competitor, I make no warranties as to whether my match ammo makes my declared PF. I understand the division rules and the penalties for failing to meet the PF requirements. The match administration has the ability to challenge and chrono my match ammo at any time to verify that I’m in compliance.

The calibration ammo is tested and approved by the match adminstration. Once that has been done, competitors are denied the ability to challenge its PF. The calibration ammo is then used in a questionable process that can alter the order of finish in the match. Because of that difference, I think the testing method falls short of what it should be.

I reload ammo. I know that unintentional errors can occur during the process. Reloaded ammo is being use as calibration ammo. Isn't it possible that one, or more, rounds from the chrono ammo supply could be out of spec? It could be the one that is used on your calibration challenge, and you will never have the opportunity to answer that question. The evidence was sent down range.

Edited October 20, 2006 by omnia1911

[richardschennberg]

It's better to take a second shot at a popper that fails to fall. But after a second hit in or above the scoring zone, I will move on and ask for a calibration after "Range is Clear."

[Nik Habicht]

It's better to take a second shot at a popper that fails to fall. But after a second hit in or above the scoring zone, I will move on and ask for a calibration after "Range is Clear."

That's an acceptable approach if it's just a popper ----- but it's a big gamble if it's an activating popper.....