10 Pts For Thrown Clays In Uspsa. Is It Enough?

[Religious Shooter]

Has anyone considered that pigeon flippers might not be a good idea?

The need to change the rules to try and force folks to shoot it seems to indicate that it's a bad/questionable prop/target. Just because someone built it and it looks cool doesn't mean it is or ever was an appropriate prop/target for USPSA.

Just something that came to me while reading this thread....

Pigeon flippers RULE!!!

I don't know if you regulary shoot USPSA multigun matches or not but for the longest time steel rifle targets could only be valued at 5 points.

If it was 5' away ... 5 points.

If it was 100' away ... 5 points.

If it was 300 yards away ... 5 points.

If it was 350 yards away ... 5 points.

This year's Nationals in Albany when they were mistakenly valued at 5 points you see multiple shooters just throwing shots at the 300+ yard targets. Looking at the scores and their times it looks like Taran Butler, Bruce Piatt and Jojo Vidanes decided to throw shots at them and blow them off. They weren't worth the points.

Does that mean we should do away with rifle steel past 300 yards? If you get down to it your statement:

The need to change the rules to try and force folks to shoot it seems to indicate that it's a bad/questionable prop/target. Just because someone built it and it looks cool doesn't mean it is or ever was an appropriate prop/target for USPSA.

would apply to 300+ yard steel. So by your statement a 300+ yard steel target is not appropriate for USPSA.

Dude... no way. Neither a steel target at 300+ yards or a flipper is inappropriate. The scoring sytem and the rules is (or was with the 300+yard targets) BO.

[mike_pinto]

neil, i look forward to lighter discussions while sitting on the beach, with a drink in our hands.

trapr

Definitely the best idea yet...................

Stage 22 is a Comstock Stage consisting of 10 glasses of beer.

Start position: Sitting on Kavala beach.

Scoring: If youre lucky

Penalties: Procedural penalties for spilling beer.

Procedure: On the start signal engage all glasses freestyle, timing stops .... who bl**dy cares when the timing stops. Bring more beer.

Now that is what I call a match. Man, I may need to bail outta Japan and get over there. Forget the shooting, I'll pre-order the drinks!!

Have fun guys..

Mike

[Religious Shooter]

I back Kurt's opinion from page one, flippers have no place in higher level competitions due to the difficulty in calling the hit and the eventual swaying of the match by bad calls we have all seen. They are great fun, I can hit them, but they are not worth the aggrivation and upset they can cause in a match.

You can have bad spotting with long range rifle steel as well. In Albany there were multiple times in my squad where the RO's missed the call. And yes it caused a lot of aggravation. But I don't think we should get rid long range rifle steel just because of the difficulty in calling a hit.

The procedures just need to be changed. Two or three RO's should be calling the hits. And if the main RO and the shooter disagree the tie-breaking decision should go the second and maybe even a third RO.

[kurtm]

The "Nationals " have already been. Get over it

Two thoughts, with a bad call on "medium range"(300yds or so) rifle targets, you have a slight time penalty of reshooting it again, but the target is still there! not broken to pieces on the ground or berm. Second thought If one bullet hits a "medium range" rifle target it reacts, if one pellet hits a clay it very well might NOT react.

Now personally I have very little problem with flippers or "medium range" rifle targets, but if you want to do away with them in USPSA thats cool, after all USPSA doesn't even strech pistol shots out to "medium pistol range" any more either. It,s all just part of outcome based shooting that was posted not to long ago in the humor section. I personally don't shoot that many USPSA 3-gun/multi-gun matches so what happens there is of little concern to me, and if I decide to play I abide by the rules they have. 5, 10, 20 points same-same. Flip, no flip, same-same EXCEPT in my mind one of the above mentioned target systems is a gimick and one isn't, but hey I'm okay, your okay

[Chuck Anderson]

So if the 350 yd targets at the multi gun weren't worth shooting, clearly the stage winner blew them off. Oh wait he didn't. To win that stage you had to shoot them, and hit them. Just because a couple of guys blew them off doesn't mean they're bad targets. Having three targets at 350 meant if you didn't shoot them you lost one heck of a lot of points. It just means it was a pretty good freestyle stage that gave some options in shooting it.

[walangkatapat]

Anyone have Daniel Horner on video shooting that rifle stage?

[Religious Shooter]

Now personally I have very little problem with flippers or "medium range" rifle targets, but if you want to do away with them in USPSA thats cool, after all USPSA doesn't even strech pistol shots out to "medium pistol range" any more either.

Where are you getting that from?

Flip, no flip, same-same EXCEPT in my mind one of the above mentioned target systems is a gimick and one isn't, but hey I'm okay, your okay

Sporting clays... trap... or whatever uses flying clays.

They have been at it for a long time. Do you consider those games and their one (and only one) type of target a gimmick?

I don't see why the same target that's used in those sports all of a sudden becomes a "gimmick" or overly hard to call a hit on when it migrates itself to USPSA multigun or to any other 3 gun venue.

Two thoughts, with a bad call on "medium range"(300yds or so) rifle targets, you have a slight time penalty of reshooting it again, but the target is still there! not broken to pieces on the ground or berm.

I wouldn't call the time lost "slight".

Say you call and make the shot (and have it not called a hit)... moved on to the next target and engaged that target and hitting it (called correctly) ... and then having to move back to the original miscalled target ... all on 300+ yard MEDIUM RANGE targets. How much time would you loose in such a scenario? 1? 2? 3? 4 seconds? What's your split (with a hit) going to a 300+ yard MEDIUM RANGE target? ... with the wind gusting?

IIRC SMM3G has a 5 second penalty for non-hit bird. A 5 HF stage with a 20 pt bird roughly translates to a 4 second penalty. A 5 HF stage with a 10 pt bird roughly translates to a 2 second penalty.

I don't see much difference in the time lost between a non-hit bird and a miscalled 300+ yard MEDIUM RANGE target.

Second thought If one bullet hits a "medium range" rifle target it reacts, if one pellet hits a clay it very well might NOT react.

Well hit it with more pellets then. Problem solved.

[Religious Shooter]

So if the 350 yd targets at the multi gun weren't worth shooting, clearly the stage winner blew them off. Oh wait he didn't. To win that stage you had to shoot them, and hit them. Just because a couple of guys blew them off doesn't mean they're bad targets. Having three targets at 350 meant if you didn't shoot them you lost one heck of a lot of points. It just means it was a pretty good freestyle stage that gave some options in shooting it.

I engaged and put an effort in hitting those targets. I did and do think they were worth engaging.

I miswrote. I meant to write:

"They weren't worth the points to them."

Taran got 8th place on that stage by skipping.

[George]

Anyone have Daniel Horner on video shooting that rifle stage?

No, but I watched him shoot at and hit every single steel target out there and he did it reet' quick too!

I also watched Angus Hobdel push an iron sighted AR-10 through that stage almost as fast as Daniel while hitting ALL the steel too.

I was lucky enough to be on the same squad as both of these folks at the 2006 USMG.

Everyone on our squad attempted the steel with every possible effort. No intentional skippers gaming the steel on squad 4, nosiree!

[Neil Beverley]

The shotgun and rifle rules permit metal and frangible targets to be scored as double value. The IPSC Shotgun rules were extended in Jan 2006 to include paper targets as well.

My role as a course reviewer isn't to rewrite stages constantly to my way of thinking but instead I try to help the match organisers deliver a match that they want, and are happy with, but within the framework of the rules. So unless something is illegal or doesn't conform I only make recommendations.

Rather than applying any generalisation to stages when I actually review stages I always try to calculate the final stage factor. To take extreme examples: a stage with a factor of 10 renders a disappearing target next to useless, an ornament. However, if the stage factor is likely to be say 2 then the disappearing targets are worth going for and can add enough points to affect the match results.

In the end, as is so often the case, it boils down to good course design. Get it right and disappearing targets are worth including even with the value limited to a max of 10.

For me I reckon that a disappearing target needs to be able to add an absolute minimum of 3 net points to justify inclusion, to be honest I prefer 4 plus but 3 is the absolute minimum. This is the principle on which I make my recommendations to any course designer. Changing a stage from a loaded to an unloaded start, certainly for SG, may change the stage factor enough to make the difference as to whether a disappearing target is justified or not.

The black art of course design!

[kurtm]

Did I mention I can hit them with a lot of pellets? Did I mention I can run 5 poppers and then the 5 flipped clays? Did I mention that Sporting Clays is one of my favorite gun games outside of "outlaw" 3-gun. Did I mention that if it takes over 2 seconds to re-engage a midrange 300yard target that you need much more time with your rifle? Did I mention that Neil and I will be drinking beer on the beach in Kavala Greece figuring out which targets to skip while you will be here typing away about a match that happened a month ago?

When a shotgun jams(...I know ....but some still don't shoot Benelli,s), right at the time the flipper flips, he is hosed (fte) (if it is just a 10 point DISAPEARING target no big thing). If a rifle jams the target is still hanging around waiting to perform its service while the clay falls to pieces due to inattention

You will always have people skipping stuff because they can figure out what is worth while and what isn't, I have seen it in pistol only matches, shotgun only matches, and rifle only matches and 3-gun both USPSA and non USPAS. I myself shoot at everything. You see I'm just not bright enough to figure that stuff out when it comes to USPSA scoring, so I live with it, or get squaded with those who do! That doesn't mean that targets are worthless...they are useful,and important, and doggone it people like them.

BTW I am really enjoying pulling your leg as you react great!

[bigbrowndog]

about the gimmick target system that is in use by 3 gunners, for throwing clays " that have been in use for years by skeet, sporting clays, and trap shooters"

the centrifugal force used to spin the targets, in order to get them to FLY. actually aids in the destruction, once they are hit. i have at my disposal several excellent "clays" shooters., this allows me to get informed about clays sports set up, it is amazing the amount detail that goes into the setup to ensure that targets will be easy or hard, it is also easy for someone that is used to looking only at the bird to determine wether or not it has been struck by a golden BB, the RO's at a 3 gun match generally do not have the experience to make that determination.

also in our sport, the bird is in the air for a much shorter time period, on a much less predictable flight path. a slight deviation in the flight path is much easier to determine when the bird is FLYING, as opposed to TUMBLING. the birds in our sport tend to tumble for about 3-5 seconds, whereas FLYING birds are up for aprox, 5-8 seconds, almost double the time.

in a sport where missing just one bird in 100, can put you in 4th or 5th place, or worse. the RO's have become more astute at what a hit bird looks like. our Ro's have to be aware of gun handling, foot faults, and other stuff... this is more than 6 lines i have a headache. trapr

[mike.45]

this is more than 6 lines i have a headache

WildTurkey is a known cure for that !

[bigbrowndog]

AHHH....ALCOHOL, the cause of, and solution to, all of life's little problems.

Homer, knew what he was talkin' about......

see ya soon buddy

trapr

by the way...the comment about the RO's not having the experience to make a call on a hit bird, was based on the fact that it is a relatively new target, and one that as a whole is difficult to call due to the other factors i mentioned.

Edited August 26, 2006 by bigbrowndog

[kurtm]

Mike, we need a supply of "Turkey" STAT!!! when we touch down it HAS to be available, after all Trapr needs to get rid of his head ache!! Of course we could just throw him in the Med and order cheap wine while me and Neil laugh!!

[bigbrowndog]

KURT, remember the line from "Backdraft"....." you go we go"

buddy, pal,.....I go, yugo.....better yet we throw NEIL, in the med and drink his booze.

trapr