TDean Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 I have a KKM threaded barrel I'd like to use in Limited division because it's more accurate than the stock Glock. I wonder if this could be considered "weighted attachment" seeing how the barrel's threaded portion protrudes 3/4" past the slide. Good-to-go? (Edited by TDean at 8:58 am on Dec. 6, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 no you can't have alonger barrel they still consider that added weight so no go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 7, 2001 Author Share Posted December 7, 2001 That's 1 in the "NO" column...... This is the only rule that might govern this situation: g. External modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce recoil are specifically not allowed. ..but this rule says that barrels are an "internal" modification: h. Internal modifications to improve accuracy, reliability and function are allowed. e.g. spherical bushings, accu-rails, replacement barrels. Come on, let's have a couple votes in the "YES" column! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 I left my 40 barrel long enough to just fit the IPSC box, it was almost 5.5" long, and shot it for about a year at that length under IPSC rules which I think read the same as those quoted. It was never questioned by officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 I left my 40 barrel long enough to just fit the IPSC box, it was almost 5.5" long, and shot it for about a year at that length under IPSC rules which I think read the same as those quoted. It was never questioned by officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 The barrel is an internal part. If you can put a heavy bull barrel in a limited gun, I don't see why a longer barrel wouldn't be allowed. My interpretation of the rules is it's OK for USPSA. To be absolutely sure, you can run it by John Amidon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 7, 2001 Author Share Posted December 7, 2001 I asked him a couple questions about Production Division a while back. The answers I recieved covered more gray area than the USS George Washington has paint.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 I'd say that yes, it's okay. Replacement barrels are specifically allowed! Not sure why the external mods was even brought up, it's not external :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 7, 2001 Author Share Posted December 7, 2001 I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 I would bet that since Glock does not offer the gun with a barrel that has 3/4 of thread sticking out, it would be called a "prototype", and not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalanche Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 Is TDean asking about legal for IDPA or IPSC? What is the ruling for both? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 9, 2001 Author Share Posted December 9, 2001 Rich, doesn't this rule make it OK? c. Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available to the general public for one year and 500 produced Avalanche, US Limited Division is my focus. (Edited by TDean at 10:31 am on Dec. 9, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 They put the "components" part in there to allow people with Para frame kits to use them, once the complete Para guns were accepted. I think that the Caspian hi-cap was not legal in limited, until Craig claimed that they had built 500 of them. Package 500 Glocks with threaded barrels, put them up for sale. File the paperwork with USPSA, and after a year you will be good to go. (Edited by Rich Bagoly at 7:44 pm on Dec. 9, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 For USPSA Limited, you can specifically change the barrel. I cannot find a rule that states it cannot hang .75" past the end of the gun. There is no box like IPSC. So, overall length is not an issue. The 500 produced doesn't apply since he is not changing the frame, slide or caliber. If there was a problem with barrels of a non-factory configuration, all the Para's with bull barrels would be illegal. To my knowledge, Para has never had bull barrel P16 or P14, nor have they produced 500 of them. Now, of course, this gun would not be USPSA Production legal. Nor would it be IDPA legal, but it should be Limited legal. Again, you should check with Amidon to be sure. (I know, he's difficult to deal with. I've never had real good luck getting answers from him either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Quote: Again, you should check with Amidon to be sure. (I know, he's difficult to deal with. I've never had real good luck getting answers from him either.) I'm supprised to hear you say that. My experience with Mr. Amidon is very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Well John, then maybe you should ask Amidon. It seems he's good about answering questions regarding scoring & etc. But, when it comes to equipment and gun modifications, his answers are often vague or non-existent. It might have something to do with the Craig incident. He may not want to answer equipment questions for fear it will come back to haunt him later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Maby ShooterGrrl is the person to ask. I bet she knows him. I have recieved good answers on all of the questions. He usually answers me within a week. I have noticed SG seems to get faster replies...... My gut feeling on this is a big no........ My gut has been known to be wrong though (besides being to big. I video taped this weekends match and I don't like my profile ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 10, 2001 Author Share Posted December 10, 2001 SS, we mammals are suppoed to fatten-up in the winter months. OK, I emailed John Amidon. I'll let you know what he says. (Edited by TDean at 7:30 am on Dec. 10, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 10, 2001 Author Share Posted December 10, 2001 Well, I heard back from John A. I wasn't expecting this.......or maybe I was..... Your arguments to make it legal are all within the rules,however, extended barrels have not been allowed in the past due to the portion that extends is an external part of the process, and therefore falls under g. an external weight and is not allowed. DVC, John So barrels are considered an external mod now? I guess I have to get the die-grinder out and flush-up all my guns barrels with their respective slides. I think some of them extend a whole illegal 1/16" ! Rich, one more thing on the "500 factory produced rule" Glock Inc. actually sells a 6" "hunting" barrel for the G20. But, hell.....that rule isn't the one Mr. Amidon referenced anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted December 11, 2001 Share Posted December 11, 2001 Hi guys, I'm surprised by this answer! If it was me, I'd be real tempted to use the gun and then arb it IF the subject came up. Or... buy a different replacement barrel - there must be good barrels that don't extend, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 11, 2001 Author Share Posted December 11, 2001 I could get another barrel, but why if this one is legal. Besides, I don't want to put too much more $$ into the project,...it's just a Glock I too was mystified by the rule he quoted rendering it illegal. I suspect there's some history there pertaining to extended barrels judging by his response. Anybody know what "...in the past..." situation Mr. Amidon might be refering to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 11, 2001 Share Posted December 11, 2001 The STI barrel in my second Limited gun is visibly longer than the STI barrel in my first Limited gun. Just because the gunsmith cut and crowned it differently, does it make it an extended barrel? (If I recrown a barrel, is that an illegal lightening modification?) What's the baseline barrel measurement for a given gun model, anyway? What happens when a given example of the LimiBlaster400 model has a barrel that measures 5.001" and another example measures 5.009"? Nobody can make a zero-tolerance part. How are barrels measured, hood to crown? Back of chamber to end of rifling? If a longer barrel is considered an external weight, why aren't the Limcat and KKM tungsten sleeves considered weights? They are partially external. Can I mill down my frame and add a tungsten frame sleeve to match the original outside dimensions*? This is why I think the IPSC box should be adopted in US Limited and L10. An extended barrel is fine as long as your gun still fits in the box. *Johnny, Sandy, et al: Don't even think of doing this without giving me a percentage and giving me prototypes to test! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 11, 2001 Author Share Posted December 11, 2001 This is why I didn't want to ask John in the first place! It's as if he interprets the rules, rather than examine the confines of the rules already in place. Even though the rules clearly state that a barrel is an internal modification, he sees an extended barrel as an external weighted attachment? I like what ShooterGirl said, I'll use it and arbitrate it if someone's feeling froggy. Thanks for all the replies folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted December 11, 2001 Share Posted December 11, 2001 The part of the barrel inside the gun is no problem. You have 3/4" hanging out. Don't try to tell me it is not an external modification. I am surprised the tungsten mag wells are legal. OK, not surprised. Just disappointed that the rules get selectively enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 11, 2001 Author Share Posted December 11, 2001 All we can do is read and adhere to the existing rules. The rules state that a barrel IS an internal modification. That should cover it. There is NO rule which dictates the distance a barrel can protrude past the slide. Without a "box" to measure our guns, the barrel could be as long as I want it to. Saying that the barrel is an EXTERNAL modification is contradictory to the USPSA rules governing Limited division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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