Philadelphia Gunman Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 Can you load a 10 round mag PLUS put one it the chamber to start a stage ? An RO stopped me from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 I have never seen the rule that would indicate the RO was correct. That does not mean he wasn't, just that I don't remember seeing it and I have read the rule book many times. I have also loaded 10+1 many times with no RO complaints. You wanna see an argument with a RO over rules? Let one try to stop me from loading 10+1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 The RO was wrong. The rule only stipulates that you cannot load more than 10 rounds in a magazine. What that means to the RO is the penalty is assessed on the 11th shot if shooting from an empty gun (slide lock typically) or the 12th shot if the shooter started with 11+1 or did a reload with a round in the chamber. Confusing for the RO who should be focused on other things? Yes. It's arguably the job of the CRO or maybe whoever's manning the score sheet when shooting at club matches without an RO/CRO. The penalty for too many shots, BTW, is the shooter is moved to Open division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 Hmmm. So, the shooter loads, tops off, and then screws the first shooting position so badly he shoots to slide lock and has to do a standing reload in Lim10/Production. And the RO wants to/has to give him a penalty? Not around here he won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 I think Kbear misstated that - the RO is to assess the penalty on the 12th shot without a reload, period. You can most definitely load a mag + 1 and shoot to slide lock before reloading again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 Quote: from Shooter Grrl on 4:58 am on April 9, 2002 I think Kbear misstated that - the RO is to assess the penalty on the 12th shot without a reload, period. Wrong. The ONLY time you can fire 11 rounds in Limited 10 or Production is if you had one round in the the chamber and used a full 10 round mag. If the gun is shot or started dry (empty chamber), you can only fire 10 rounds before you incur a penalty. Maybe I wasn't clear about having a round in the chamber in my first explaination but the max number of shots fired depends on what was in the pipe. Shooting 11 rounds from an empty chamber means there were 11 rounds in the MAG - which means you shot an open gun in a 10 round division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 That I get. And all the more reason to use 10-shot mags in a widebody instead of downloaded hi-caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 So...the answer to the original question is... Yes, you can load 10 +1 in production, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 Flexmoney, Yes, it is perfectly legal to load 10+1. Your RO was incorrect. If you are planning on shooting there again, contact the match director and make sure his ROs know the rules. If you get any crap about it, contact your section coordinator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 And all the more reason to use 10-shot mags in a widebody instead of downloaded hi-caps. Unless you can't count! True 10 round mags are generally VERY difficult to load to capactity and hard to seat in the guns which makes speed reloads nearly impossible. Downloaded highcaps with plugs are a better solution but the guys that use them say they are a pain and can cause reliability problems. I don't shoot Limited 10 but if I did, I'd use my high-caps and count carefully. (Edited by kbear38S at 12:08 pm on April 9, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 Patrick, I didn't know you couldn't count to 10. kbear, You said: I don't shoot Limited 10 but if I did, I'd use my high-caps and count carefully. So...you have to be careful when you count to ten??? (Nelson voice from the simpson's)...Haaa-ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 10, 2002 Share Posted April 10, 2002 Quote: from Flexmoney on 1:42 pm on April 9, 2002 Patrick, I didn't know you couldn't count to 10. kbear, ..you have to be careful when you count to ten??? Can't count... That's why I shoot Limited! D'oh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 10, 2002 Share Posted April 10, 2002 Wrong. The ONLY time you can fire 11 rounds in Limited 10 or Production is if you had one round in the the chamber and used a full 10 round mag. If the gun is shot or started dry (empty chamber), you can only fire 10 rounds before you incur a penalty. Maybe I wasn't clear about having a round in the chamber in my first explaination but the max number of shots fired depends on what was in the pipe. Shooting 11 rounds from an empty chamber means there were 11 rounds in the MAG - which means you shot an open gun in a 10 round division. Please explain the difference between putting 11 rounds in your starting mag and chambering a round and putting 10 rounds in your starting mag, chambering a round then switch mags. It does NOT mean I shot an open gun. The rule does not state that your mags can hold no more than 10 rounds, just that there can't be more than 10 in it when you are shooting. I shoot Lim-10 a lot. ALL of my 10 round mags hold 10 rounds easily and seat easily. I just wish I could figure out a way to fit 11 in one of my singlestack mags so I would not have to load a "barny" bullet, then switch mags. I hate having a mag on my belt that is not topped off so I usually carry a bullet in my pocket to replace the one I chambered. It usually takes me a while to load and make ready..... (Edited by Singlestack at 10:30 pm on April 9, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philadelphia Gunman Posted April 10, 2002 Author Share Posted April 10, 2002 Thanks guys for all the quick replies to my question. I thought I was right, you can load 10 + 1 in production class. By the way I just got the results of the match and I won production division ! Granted there were only 5 production shooters. but this was only my second ever IPSC match and the other one was 2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 10, 2002 Share Posted April 10, 2002 Please explain the difference between putting 11 rounds in your starting mag and chambering a round and putting 10 rounds in your starting mag, chambering a round then switch mags. As a practical matter, it is the same thing. Personally, I wouldn't bust you for it shooting a club match. To the letter of the rules, it is an equipment violation and I suspect you could get called for it at a major match. It does NOT mean I shot an open gun. The rule does not state that your mags can hold no more than 10 rounds, just that there can't be more than 10 in it when you are shooting. You are partially correct. The rule DOES NOT state that your mags can hold more than 10 rounds. You are wrong that is says there can't be more than 10 in it when you are shooting. The US 14th Edition says: Maximum Capacity Restrictions - Yes, 10 rounds maximum in magazine Regardless, the penalty for violating division equipment rules is you get moved to open. There are no provisions for procedurals or any other penalty. Do what you want. I'm not arguing the fairness of the rule with you. I'm simply trying my best to answer Phila. Gunman's original question as best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 10, 2002 Share Posted April 10, 2002 You are partially correct. The rule DOES NOT state that your mags can hold more than 10 rounds. You are wrong that is says there can't be more than 10 in it when you are shooting. Well if that were true, then you could not use downloaded 15 round mags in Production. I say you can, and I bet USPSA does too. I aggree that if you were to have more than 10 in your mag and did a reload with it, you would be in violation of the rules and should be moved to open. The answer to PG's question is yes, you can load 10+1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 John Amidon just made a ruling in the newest issue of Front Site. Volume 19 Number 3, Page 4 You CAN'T put 11 bullets in a magazine EVEN IF TO SIMULATE TOPPING OFF THE GUN. You CAN top off your gun by putting one bullet in the chamber, taking out that mag and putting in a mag with 10 rounds - hence giving you 10+1 - the same exact thing as if you had 11 rounds in the mag in the first place. It's silly. It's a time waster. But it's Amidon's ruling so that's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Dowter, Thanks for the update. I'm supprised but, oh well... I wish I got my issue of FS as soon as you do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 I read that. Couldn't beleive it. I think that falls into the "beating the shooter over the head with the rule book" category. There is no advantage gained. Only an "ass-monkey" of an RO would use that rule on somebody. (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Couldn't beleive it. I think that falls into the "beating the shooter over the head with the rule book" category. There is no advantage gained. Hey nobody says you can't do it. You'll only get penalized for it once anyway. After that you're in Open Division and you're allowed to load as many as you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Youre an alright guy kbear38s. I was expectecting a "I told ya so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 When I shoot L10 I go up to the line with an 11 round mag and save several seconds in loading and making ready. So let's say I LAMR on Amidon's stage at the factory gun nationals. (I put mag with 11 in it, rack, and holster.) I shoot 11 shots to slide lock, reload, and finish the stage. Is Amidon going to move me into Open? What did I do different from the guy who chambered a round and inserted a 10 round mag at LAMR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Eric, Amidon covers that in his section in the latest Front Sight. I'd reference it for you...but my girlfriend took it to work. Basically, you load 11, you get bumped. And...there is no Open class at the Factory Gun Nationals to get bumped to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBChaffin Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 "but my girlfriend took it to work." Threaddrift on: Man, that's cool... Threaddrift off I think it's pretty silly, but I also think I would take the extra "several seconds" and use another mag for the bullet up the pipe rather than taking my chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted April 26, 2002 Share Posted April 26, 2002 And...there is no Open class at the Factory Gun Nationals to get bumped to. Sure there is. It's just not eligable for prizes or anything but hey, think of all the fame* you'd have winning High Open in the Stock Gun Nationals. *or maybe that would be shame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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