LAMR Question

[Vince Pinto]

It's the US Nationals, you're the RO and when you ask your competitor to "LAMR", he:

1) Inserts a mag and chambers 1 round;

2) Returns the mag to it's pouch and holsters his gun;

3) He assumes the start position.

You notice he's failed to insert another full mag but, he's concentrating so hard on the stage, he forgets to do so and merely waits for you to proceed with the other range commands.

What would you do, and why?

[lynn jones]

vince,

i would have no problem telling the competitor to check his gun.  there is no advantage or coaching in this example.  the command is "load and make ready", this person did not finish making ready.

if the mag falls out after the buzzer, i usually wait until the "holster command"  to start laughing.

lynn jones

[BSeevers]

---

Quote: from lynn jones on 2:50 pm on Nov. 25, 2002

vince,

i would have no problem telling the competitor to check his gun.  there is no advantage or coaching in this example.  the command is "load and make ready", this person did not finish making ready.

if the mag falls out after the buzzer, i usually wait until the "holster command"  to start laughing.

lynn jones

---

Me too, club matches also

(Edited by BSeevers at 2:56 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)

[Jake Di Vita]

It's pretty pointless to screw the compeitor, especially if he or she was a newer shooter. Like what the others said, there's no coaching or advantage involved.

[ErikW]

Same as someone who puts in a mag but doesn't chamber a round, tell them. Why? Because it's helpful. It's not assisting them in the course of fire, which doesn't begin until the beep.

[Al Capizzo]

Yup, I'm with you fella's. Help 'em out.

Al

[Detlef]

Erik, WRONG! COF begins with LAMR command...

-D.

[skeeter]

got to help it's the right thing to do. why screw a guy for a brain fart.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

Arnie taught us to tell them...or at least repeat the commands until they catch on.

[JeeDee]

OK

- for the sake of argument -

I would probably do the same as you but if you help him, next time you maybe miss it and the shooter screws up the stage.

It is the shooters responsibility to "LAMR" and with this command the game is on. Not after the beep but after the LAMR command. Anything you do, how helpfull and considerate, is coaching. Especially if there is a chance that you miss it the next time. Then the RO is becoming a major issue in the outcome the stage. Next time it is a guy you don't like or next time the RO has a different opinion.

Fact is that the COF starts with LAMR. Not with the beep.

My 2 cents.

 

[Jake Di Vita]

If the COF starts with the LAMR command then the RO's attention should immediately be on the weapon until the end of the COF. If the RO is doing his job, he won't miss it.

[JeeDee]

Possible but what if he does miss it next time around. My point is that this shoudn't be the responsibility of the RO, his job is difficult enough. It is the shooters responsibility.  

[ErikW]

Detlef, that's a subject for another thread and another rule rewrite request. There's the  "adminstrative" COF, which begins with LAMR and ends with Range is Clear, and nested within it is the "competitive" COF, which begins with the start signal and ends with the last shot.

[Detlef]

hmm, and I thought we had decided (see Humor) that not admitting when you're wrong is a female attibute? But then you say you always end up in the ladies' super squad....something to think about...

[Flexmoney]

Hey...I started a stage at the 2001 Lim Nationals without a round in the pipe.  It was a re-shoot situation, things were a bit screwy.  The RO missed it too, I was under the distinct impression that he would have informed me had he known (we both thought I racked the slide).

So...to expand on my first post...this type of question came up in our RO class early this year.  Arnie Christianson (Range Master at the Nationals) said we, as RO's, are there for:

1)  safety

2)  To assist the shooter

He specifically said this was not coaching, it was assisting the shooter before the course started.

[ErikW]

[VoiceOfButt-head] Dammit, Detlef, don't make me kick your @ss again.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Since the COF starts with the LAMR command, isn't giving advice to the shooter during loading essentially the same as telling him he forgot to engage a popper or that he's faulting a line while shooting?

There's no safety issue in either case, so how do you differentiate?

[Jake Di Vita]

I think it is just how Flex said with #1 is safety and #2 is assisting the shooter. The difference is that after he or she forgot that popper or faulted the line, if the RO had reminded him, it would have given the competitor an unfair advantage. I'd consider it an unfair disadvantage if the competitor didn't start the COF ready to roll. Everyone should start the COF equal, it's what happens during the COF that determines the winner.

My .02.

[ErikW]

OK well I guess the "when does the COF begin and end" question is the crux of this thread anyway...

So the RO should hand out procedural penalties earned while loading and/or unloading?

E.g., "Procedure: Engage all targets and do not step on mines (clay pigeons). Penalties: -10 per broken clay pigeon (stepped-on mine)." Imagine Detlef, the klutz, steps on one after LAMR but before ARY then crushes another after his last shot but before GC/HD/H. RO Vince would give him two procedural penalties?

[Joe]

We discussed this in the 'Other' Forum a while back.  I stand by my answer.

http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...6&topic=156

Joe

[Vince Pinto]

Eric,

Clay pigeon mines which attract 10 point penalties?

In which sport are they permitted? I'd like to try it one day, just for fun.

In any case, if you query procedurals during loading, what do you feel about a guy who drops his gun after LAMR but before loading?

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 8:31 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)

[jkmccoy]

Vince,

Isn't there enough excitement on the forums lately? You just feel the need to stir up some controversy? Bored since the "technologically challenged" won over on the USPSA website and they (we) are back to an archaic forum format?

You are obviously not asking any easy questions...

Regarding the failure to properly LAMR...Technically it appears that any suggestions to the shooter after LAMR must fall under the realm of coaching and are specifically disallowed. Human nature being what it is, many of us are too nice (all other evidence to the contrary) to enforce this rule strictly (although I am a firm believer in strict enforcement of the rules). Especially in a local match with a new shooter, common sense and the support of our sport must prevail and there must be some consideration given the shooter. At minimum, repetition of the LAMR command might be considered.

Regarding the dropped gun...You're really pushing the envelope now. Since the COF has started (given LAMR command) this should be a DQ. Your own ruling regarding dropping a pistol after the "holster" command supports the argument that the COF begins with the official command (LAMR) and ends with the official command (..holster). Dropping the pistol any time between those commands should result in a DQ.

I am a firm believer in strict enforcement of all of the rules of the sport under all circumstances (new shooters, experienced shooters, club matches, national matches, etc.). However, we should probably remember that the rules were partly written to enhance/promote the sport.  At local matches we could probably (reasonably) argue that part of our responsibility is also in instructing shooters in the rules of the sport. That may include things like pointing out that they may not have finished loading and making ready, or that dropping a firearm during the COF is a DQ offense. At a national match it seems that it should be the shooters' reponsibility to understand the rules and the RO's should be free to enforce those rules strictly (fairly).

Cheers,

[Skywalker]

I would agree with all of you on giving the shooter an advice he didn't finish to make ready, for all the reasons you already explained.

I have only one major concern in doing this: maybe that, due to lots of things  I am trying to concentrate onto, as a R.O., I will notice this "fault" in a competitor and won't notice it at all in another one (it might happen, even if you are the best trained R.O.).

The second shooter could reasonably ask me why did I give assistance to the previous and not to him.

Just to make sure I will behave the same way with every shooter, I will refrain from giving such advices to shooters.

I think this should be fair and equal to every competitor.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Kelly,

It's great to see you here and what an excellent post.

In fact I agree with leniency for newer shooters at club matches, which is why my initial question set the scene at the US Nationals. That is an important match and all rules must therefore be observed to the tee, without exception, including Rule 8.6.1.

My tongue-in-cheek question about the dropped gun after the LAMR command was a friendly shot at Erik who asked: "So the RO should hand out procedural penalties earned while loading and/or unloading?". If we start making exceptions for procedurals, then the next thing will be exceptions for safety infractions.

My biggest concern about intervening is that an RO should not be able to influence the outcome of a major match. By warning the competitor about a loading oversight, you can save him 3 seconds after the draw, and that can very easily mean the difference between 1st and 2nd place, or more.

If I'm to be an impartial RO, then I must let the chips fall where they may, provided it's not a safety issue such as, say, untied shoelaces.

The term "assist the competitor" is often misinterpreted to mean "be his mother". The best way we can assist a competitor is to ensure we are totally impartial and that one guy has the same opportunity as every other guy.

I know it sounds harsh to some, but if my American fans (!!) believe a competitor is solely responsible for his gun if there's a discharge during unloading, how can he not be solely responsible for his gun during loading?

[Neil Beverley]

I have to agree with Vince and the others that have said do nothing.

This is based on an absolute desire to assist and be fair to competitors.  All competitors.

If I RO on Saturday but not on Sunday I want to fair to the competitors who shoot on Sunday.  I can't guarantee that the Sunday RO will be as vigilant on will even apply the same assistance.

So by helping someone on Saturday I may be doing a huge dis-service to someone on Sunday.

To be fair we must ALL say nothing.

I know and support the idea of helping the new guys and we often have a trophy for the best "Novice".  If you help one and not another you can cheat one of them out of their first trophy.

One of the worst cases of "help" I've seen is at the end of a stage with a miss in the final target grouping.  "Are you sure you're finished" said the RO.  This was to help a Novice who'd had brain fade.

The RO genuinely wanted to encourage the newbee by not letting him have a rubbish score because of a miss but of course only deals with the novice who had a miss in the last group of targets but not the first group.

Ironically by the time the RO had uttered his words of "help" and by the time the novice had reacted, reloaded and shot the target the additional time knocked back the resultant score.  I had words!

This is a dreadful example of why we must not interfere.

If you want to help - don't help!