New IPSC Rules Committee

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

Not only did that not make sense...it didn't fit the conversation.

(omnia...i think he was saying the RO needs to ensure the gun is unloaded before giving the "gun clear...".)

Still...I feel the responsibilty always needs to be on the shooter.

(Vince, you have a McD's down the hall???)

[Chuck D]

Detlef:

 Accidents WILL happen. In the early 90's I got backsplash off the falling plates at the Bianchi Cup. I can happen anywhere and at any time under any conditions. Would what happened to me have happened outside, most likely not...maybe thats why you call it a weak argument. What's not "weak" is the hole in my head and leg,my broken pair of Peltor electronic ear muffs and the fact I sent the shooter home for the day. Our backstops can be better but for 15 years they were/are effective at stopping rounds fired at them.

Vince: You of all people should know from past experiences that I am an IPSC supporter ( remember all those "don't fear the dark side" comments you sent me ?). You asked for peoples opinion, I gave you mine. I'll know better next time. Sorry.

[Vince Pinto]

Chuck,

I had no idea it was you, but I just checked your profile. I don't know how I offended you but, as I think you know, it's not my style.

In any case, I apologise.

[omnia1911]

I guess us "timer holders" in the USA are responsible for the problems that exist between IPSC and USPSA.

I hope that USPSA never compromises the safety of its membership for the sake of unity with IPSC.

See you all at Micky D's. Stop by Vince, I'll be happy to buy you a burger.

(Edited by omnia1911 at 7:25 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)

[Vince Pinto]

Omnia1911,

Burger? Did you say burger?? Make mine a Quarter Pounder with cheese!

The difference between IPSC & USPSA in respect of a discharge during unloading has nothing whatsoever to do with safety.

The difference is what happens after the event.

[Chuck D]

Vince:

 Don't worry mate, we're still cool. Since being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes this "timer holder" can no longer eat those Quarter Pounders w/cheese. Can we "timer holders" go and get a Turkey Burger or Grilled Chicken sandwitch instead ? You can drink my share of beer, I'll have a diet cola.

[Flexmoney]

Quarter-pounder?  

Shouldn't that be a Royal w/cheese?  (in IPSC land)

   

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 7:37 pm on Nov. 25, 2002

Omnia1911,

Burger? Did you say burger?? Make mine a Quarter Pounder with cheese!

The difference between IPSC & USPSA in respect of a discharge during unloading has nothing whatsoever to do with safety.

The difference is what happens

after

the event.

---

Then why do you think USPSA is handing out the DQ for a discharge during the unloading process, if it isn't for reasons of safety.

I understand IPSC's position that it feels there is no safety issue, if the round goes into the berm. Therein lies the rub.

(Edited by omnia1911 at 11:08 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)

[Vince Pinto]

Perhaps I should've been clearer.

Safety is preventative, like anti-lock brakes. Safety should help prevent errors or accidents. Air-bags, on the other hand, are only designed to reduce injury when the safety items fail and the accident happens.

In IPSC, the anti-lock brakes are the ROs and our air-bags are the back berm.

And a DQ is like a loosing your driving license after the crash! You'll probably be more careful next time, but loosing your license did not prevent the accident.

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 1:35 am on Nov. 26, 2002

Perhaps I should've been clearer.

Safety is preventative, like anti-lock brakes. Safety should help prevent errors or accidents. Air-bags, on the other hand, are only designed to reduce injury when the safety items fail and the accident happens.

In IPSC, the anti-lock brakes are the ROs and our air-bags are the back berm.

And a DQ is like a loosing your driving license after the crash! You'll probably be more careful next time, but loosing your license did not prevent the accident.

---

....and the driver is responsible for his automobile "at all times", not his anti-lock brakes. :-)

[Neil Beverley]

Sorry Vince!  I agree with Omnia1911 about 10.3.2.5. I believe the responsibility should rest with the competitor not the RO.  The RO is there to make a further check not to take the responsibility.

Besides any time the gun goes bang unintentionally it's dangerous.  It's luck if the round goes into the backstop.  The competitor's messed it up and in these circumstances the round could so easily escape the range.

I will be arguing within the Co-ordinating Committee to follow the US thinking on this one.

On the other hand I'm not so fired up that I can't live with it and if I get out voted I would rather keep SG aligned.

[Neil Beverley]

Actually whilst we're on the subject (well almost) I strongly dislike the expression "Accidental Discharge".

In my humble opinion the only "accidental" discharges are related to gun malfunctions.  All other instances are "Negligent Discharges" caused by a competitor problem.  I would love to see IPSC rewrite the references to ADs.

Also should the list relating to Unsafe Gun Handling be definitive or should the list be changed to: "examples of Unsafe Gun Handling"? What about the RO being able to tackle unexpected (undefineable) events/issues?

[benos]

I puked this out on the Hate page a couple years ago, and thought this might a place to "bring it back up."

??

I hate US Poppers in their current calibration configuration. Actually, I hate the entire concept of calibrated poppers. All they do is cause problems, while actually accomplishing little if anyting beneficial. I've seen inconsistently set Poppers, especially US Poppers, burn MANY shooters. One problem is that a 3/4 bullet diameter edge hit on a US Popper, which may or may not knock the popper down, makes the exact same sound as a center hit, which, hopefully, would knock it over. It leaves the shooter with no choice but to wait in a position or visually look at the Poppers to see if they fell. It's a ridiculous situation to force on the shooter because no one’s felt the need to re-evaluate whether or not a 20 year-old target design is still valid or beneficial today. This may have been useful when we had "Peter the Power Meter," but today it is outdated. Especially with what is left of the "power factor."

There is a good analogy in pocket billiards. If you are playing by "Bar" rules, you have to declare EXACTLY how the object ball will make its way into the pocket. The following example shows how idiotic that rule is. Imagine the 8-ball on any rail, one foot from the corner pocket. Between the 8-ball and the pocket there is an opponent’s ball, positioned one-thousandth of an inch farther away from the rail than the diameter of the 8 ball. (Ignoring the fact that on most bar tables the 8 ball is actually bigger than the rest of the balls.) Now your job, as the Bar-rules player, is to say (call) whether the 8-ball will contact the opponents ball on the way to the called pocket. Even the best players in the world couldn’t make that call. That's why "League" or professional rules have no such (ridiculous) requirement. All you have to do is to make the called ball into the called pocket. It doesn't nor should it matter if it brushes another ball on the way to the pocket. The nit-picky rules of the clueless Bar rules only complicate the game. My point is – a steel target should simply fall if struck with any reasonable hit.

While it's true that scoring problems will arise on any target, there is no need to complicate that process with an extremely inconsistent calibration procedure. At least a full size Popper usually makes a different sound when hit on the edge, potentially alerting the shooter, but not always. The original intent of the calibrated popper was for power factoring. When the Pepper Popper was introduced all we had was "Peter the Power Meter" as our calibration tool. (For latecomers to IPSC, it was pretty much a joke.) Now we have the chronograph for calibration. Ammo can be pulled and checked at any time, which takes care of power factoring.

The solution is to make all regular size Poppers fall forward, (eliminating the wind-calibration-factor-problem), like many do now, and get rid of the leverage hinge on US Poppers and set them so they fall with any reasonable hit. The only loss (and I'm not sure if the word "loss" applies) is there would not be an "advantage" for shooting major verses minor caliber for borderline or low hits on steel. This slight loss would be offset by the huge gain in fairness to each competitor; the stages would run smoother faster and they would be MUCH easier to administer. As a stage or match designer, think of how nice your life would be if you didn't have to worry about Popper calibration. (Or I don't know, maybe some like to worry about it.)

Stages should not be designed to easily penalize the shooter; the shooter will take care of that himself.

be

[Vince Pinto]

BE,

You have no argument from me about forward falling poppers, which is what we've used exclusively in Hong Kong (and Macau) for the past 3 years or so.

It was originally driven by Police concerns about second shots going over the back berm, but we soon realised that we never had popper calibration problems ever again. Hooray!

As much as I'd love to make this a (safety?) requirement, you can imagine the "shoving things down our throat" resistance I would get from one ornery region, who already take great pleasure in causing me grievous bodily harm.

Anwyay, I'll certainly raise the issue with my committee and, if they give me grief, I'm gonna tell 'em BE made me do it .......... bwa-ha-ha!

[benos]

Tell 'em to bring it on baby! The US Popper is the stupidest target ever designed!!!

[Flexmoney]

Brian,

Since Vince has me going today...and few would say it...

Why not just hit the sucker in the middle?  

(I do think the forward falling popper idea has merit.  Vince has a rough diagram somewhere.)

[benos]

"Why not just hit the sucker in the middle?"

Whatever.

We've been using forward falling poppers at Rio since we saw them at the World Match in England. They are the solution to all (regular) popper induced troubles. Now all they gotta do is git rid of that silly-ass hinge on the US popper...

ya folla?

[Flexmoney]

Here is a diagram of the forward faling poppers that Vince refers to:

[shred]

[Ad:] A guy here in TX is making some really nice forward-falling poppers.  AR 500 steel, machined trigger mechanism, the works.  If anybody's in the market for poppers hereabouts, let me know and I'll pass on his info (he's got no web site yet)

[benos]

Holy crap Flex,

Don't you have a larger graphic you can post?

[Flexmoney]

Sorry 'bout that BE.  I just linked it from this guy:

http://www.vincepinto.com/images/ffpopper.jpg

[benos]

Nice link.

No worries, I got a good laugh.

[Vince Pinto]

BE,

Do you like anagrams?

I suggested that we (at least) encourage, (at most) require that all poppers be forward-falling, and the response from my esteemed colleaagues was:

FFO SSIP

I don't want to give you too many clues to help you solve this complicated and perplexing anagram, but I can tell you the response was not very positive.

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 8:17 am on Nov. 28, 2002

BE,

Do you like anagrams?

I suggested that we (at least) encourage, (at most) require that all poppers be forward-falling, and the response from my esteemed colleaagues was:

FFO SSIP

I don't want to give you too many clues to help you solve this complicated and perplexing anagram, but I can tell you the response was not very positive.

---

I knew my secret decoder mirror would come in handy some day.

[bgary]

Can't speak for all of Vince's esteemed colleagues, but at least part of the response he got is due to the word "require".  To suggest forward-falling poppers, or to even strongly-recommend them, is one thing.  To require every club in the world, everywhere, to replace or revise all their poppers to be in compliance with a new rule, is somewhat different.

At best, it is an "unfunded mandate".  At worst, clubs would simply ignore it, and undermine the credibility/authority/relevance of the rulebook in the process.

Bruce (back to lurk-mode)