Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Vince: Because of my poor english, I don´t understood this item: 2.1.8.4 Paper targets shall not be presented at an angle greater than 90 degrees from the upright. Please what is this and for porpose was created? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 A target that is 90 degrees from upright would be horizontal or parallel to the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Luiz, Your English is much better than my Portuguese, and your surname doesn't have an embarassing meaning in English, like mine does in Brazil! Rule 2.1.8.4 means you can lay a paper target down on it's side, but not past 90 degrees (e.g. upside down). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 and this is because the Classic's shape is identical upside down while its scoring areas are not... of course, if it's placed at 90 deg, you *still* don't know where to shoot! It had better been 75 deg or some smaller number... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Detlef, If you cannot identify the correct way to present a Classic Target by reading the "A, B, D" on the face, then you should just place the narrow part of the A Zone on top. Here's a diagram to assist you. In any case, regardless of which target you use, I've been reliably informed that it's usually best to aim for the centre of mass presented to you. BTW, the subject rule was primarily written in respect of the Metric Target because the "purists" among us objected to those targets being placed upside down. Apparently they believe very few bad guys attack while standing on their head or while peering from behind cover at an angle of, say, 120 degrees. The really funny thing is that the sporting "non-purists" supported this rule too. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I prefer the classic over the metric. Your diagram proves that the classic is symmetric about its own (horizontal) center line IN SHAPE. When you shoot, you cannot see the scoring lines. The scoring lines are unsymmetrical, with the majority of the A zone *weight* centered in the upper target half. So you have to shoot them a bit high. When you turn the classic upside down and shoot it high you end up in the D! This is very important to realize about the classic. Interesting that you say the metric motivated this rule. I had (apparently incorrectly) assumed the classic would have because of its symmetric shape. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 TheOtherErik was thinking the same thing I was, not the orientation of the target in relation to the sticks, but in relation to the ground. E.g., for close hoser lay-down targets over a short wall. (BTW, what does "upright" mean? One of the sticks holding the target? An abstract concept of perpendicular to the ground?) Detlef has, on more than one occassion, stated his preference for the Classic over the IPSC target. Are we not allowed to criticize something we don't consider ideal but prefer to the alternatives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Ok...do these terms help? - Head-up vs. head-down (roll) - on it's belly vs. on it's back (pitch) - left shoulder forward vs. right shoulder forward (yaw) So, is 2.1.8.4 a new rule, or have I missed it somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I dont have the rule book handy but, if Luiz quoted it exactly, you dont know which direction they are refering to... Roll, pitch or yaw. Its not clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Imagine a target is "standing upright" facing you and square on: (Roll?) You may angle a target left or right provided the head is not placed lower than the shoulders. This is the intention of the rule. (Pitch?) You may angle a target from "standing vertically" to laying flat down on it's back but again not with the head lower than the "shoulders". (Yaw?) You may angle a target so that one of it's "shoulders" is closer to the competitor than the other shoulder. Hope this helps. And if we used the terms roll, yaw or pitch, many people would complain they didn't understand. Perhaps we need a diagram in an appendix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouSig Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Vince, I'm new at this so forgive me if this is a stupid question. If I understand what your saying is that a metric target cannot be setup like this: _____ / / | | | | | | | | _ _/ | | |____| Is this correct or did I miss the point of what you just wrote. We seem to see lots of these targets at local matches. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Hi Joe, Correct (and I wish I had the patience to make such drawings!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 Thanks to all ! Now, after the interference of others friends, Vince could explain it better for us, and it´s clear for me. But Vince, the rule it´s not so clear. I think it would be very useful an apendice as you said. thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I am waiting for an answer to Flex's question. Is this a new rule? Is this rule common to IPSC and USPSA? What's the deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Yeah I've shot a bunch of illegal stages if this isn't a new, pending rule. Upside-down IPSC targets are point-robbers which force you to hold your sight lower to get the A; if you hold center, you'll get a C. They're perfect in the middle of a monotonous three- or four-target array. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I don't know what it is...but, I ain't fer it...I's 'genst it. (It does make since on the amoeba targets.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Ron, It's a new rule (along with numerous other changes made) in the IPSC rulebook which took effect on 1 January 2003. You can dowload a copy from the IPSC website. BTW, it only deals with "static" targets, meaning targets which remain static. If the target is part of a moving target, it's not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Ron, The other part of your question asked if it common to both IPSC and USPSA. As I understand it, USPSA hasn't adopted any of the new rule changes yet. So, our good old red book (14th Edition, 2001) is still in effect. Does that sound right everybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Flexmoney / Ron The new rules are only for IPSC. USPSA didn´t change this yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Static paper targets must not be presented at an angle greater than 90 degrees from the vertical. ??? This one is confusing even before it hits the books. I posted my concerns on the USPSA rule feedback area (felt like I was posting in the wind). Does this rule mean we can't rotate the target around the "clock face", such that the head is at 6 o'clock? If so, that takes a big chuck of our stage design options away...for no reason. I have solved many a stage design problem in the pre-match walk-thru by turning a target upside-down. I can see where there is a problem with turning the "turtle targets" upside-down, but there is no problem turning the A/B zone upside-down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 (edited) Hey, newbie, use the Search function! Luis asked it and Vince answered it in January. Criminy, boy, you even posted twice in that thread! So you're gettin' old, too, huh? Edited October 29, 2003 by Erik Warren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I recall not liking those answers. Thanks for keeping me honest though. I'll merge the topics. OK, now that I merged the threads. I have re-read the original...I had tuned out or the first thread due to the bickering. Also, I wasn't too worried then...as it was an IPSC rule. Now it looks like we will be stuck with this one in USPSA, unless we speak up REAL QUICK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 OK, I merged these topics, but I think this thread stayed buried. I'd like to bring it back to the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 I'm sure this has ocurred to someone, but wouldn't this still be a big problem for Texas windmill targets and they rotate through the whole circle and eventually do come to rest with one or more targets breaking the rule. I guess we'll have to cover up the bottom half of the rotation with hard cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Paul, I think the word of the rule is such that it only applies to "static" paper targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now