What Do We Want Revolver Division To Be?

[hopalong]

since this topic is quite important and I have been told it is quite active I have been checking in on you guys.

Regarding the 500 limit........

a 5 inch 610 is still a 610, as is a 3 " and a 6" ect......should be no problems there.

and Personally I don't care if there is a 500 limit, seems to work for the LTD division though, they keep coming up with all new kinds of "new stuff to try" but the Plain Jane Para Ordnance straight out of the box can and will be competitive....In someones hands that can make it competitive.

remember the K.I.S.S. meathod and there is usually very little problems, start putting all kinds of special rules and things will get "crazy" very quickly

Pat makes a good point in the "GM" thread.....If you are getting beat, practice!!!! or as he said it..."try harder". as long as it is 6 reload shoot 6 there will be no real "tricks of the day" as far as equipment goes.

I have contacted my Area Director and forwarded this thread to him, how many others of you have done so.....they need to know what the most visual, and active revolver shooters would like to take this division in the future.

SAM

[Flexmoney]

Just a summary, up to this point.

The overwhelming high vote getter in this poll is to have Revolver "like Limited".

Which would mean opening up the current rules a bit. Allowing a bit more choices...a bit more modifications.

It might now be important to note that Limited has a "no prototypes" rule...requiring 500 components to be produced before they are legal to hang on your gun.

In Limited, they always have been somewhat generous on how they look at things. A common example is to put a 6in (lightened/milled) STI slide, in 40S&W, on a Springfield frame.

[10mmdave]

Just a summary, up to this point.

The overwhelming high vote getter in this poll is to have Revolver "like Limited".

Which would mean opening up the current rules a bit. Allowing a bit more choices...a bit more modifications.

It might now be important to note that Limited has a "no prototypes" rule...requiring 500 components to be produced before they are legal to hang on your gun.

In Limited, they always have been somewhat generous on how they look at things. A common example is to put a 6in (lightened/milled) STI slide, in 40S&W, on a Springfield frame.

Well that is the exact reason for the start of all this...a year ago things were "generous" and

now we get flat out "no's" contradicting what one person allowed that year ago without any

rule change since

since this topic is quite important and I have been told it is quite active I have been checking in on you guys.

Regarding the 500 limit........

a 5 inch 610 is still a 610, as is a 3 " and a 6" ect......should be no problems there.

<snip>SAM

If the 500 limit refers to model ONLY and not the various barrel lengths then I guess that would be fine.

[10mmdave]

since this topic is quite important and I have been told it is quite active I have been checking in on you guys.

I have contacted my Area Director and forwarded this thread to him, how many others of you have done so.....they need to know what the most visual, and active revolver shooters would like to take this division in the future.

SAM

Sam, I've asked in the past what I can do to move this along, so is this what I should be

doing ?? What WE should be doing ??

I emailed my area rep about this issue back when it started, I've left it hanging as I was trying to get a feel for what the masses wanted. His initial response was write something

up and he'll submit it to the BOD.

What are the masses thoughts now ??

Do we have a workable set of rules ??

Is someone "in the know" working out of a back room on this that we don't know about ??

(I've read where someone would post something to the BOD or work on this for us )

Just wondering !

Edited June 19, 2006 by 10mmdave

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Just a summary, up to this point.

The overwhelming high vote getter in this poll is to have Revolver "like Limited".

Which would mean opening up the current rules a bit. Allowing a bit more choices...a bit more modifications.

I will agree with that but I would also ask a question. How many that voted are Active Revolver shooters and hold a classification? No way to tell.

Before changes are made because of what is posted by a few (I include myself in that few) USPSA should be assured that the numbers are not tainted by those that do not participate.

It might now be important to note that Limited has a "no prototypes" rule...requiring 500 components to be produced before they are legal to hang on your gun.

In Limited, they always have been somewhat generous on how they look at things. A common example is to put a 6in (lightened/milled) STI slide, in 40S&W, on a Springfield frame.

I agree with the 500 or whatever number is chosen. After reading what BARITONE so aptly penned, I can agree with the "Like Limited" ideas. As a revolver shooter, I have had some bad experiences at matches as a minority (shoots revolver, works for a living) . I really want the division to move forward but I also want it as stock as possible to attract those that get scared away when all they see is Open Blasters at a match.

Can someone answer one question for me: How many classified Revolver shooters are there?

I guess I am just a little thick. Comes from shooting too much revolver I guess. Maybe it is time for a vacation to Singlestack

[Carmoney]

Can someone answer one question for me: How many classified Revolver shooters are there?

Gary, the answer is 879 (per the USPSA website).

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Can someone answer one question for me: How many classified Revolver shooters are there?

Gary, the answer is 879 (per the USPSA website).

Where do they all hide????????????????????

[Barrettone]

Just a summary, up to this point.

The overwhelming high vote getter in this poll is to have Revolver "like Limited".

Which would mean opening up the current rules a bit. Allowing a bit more choices...a bit more modifications.

I will agree with that but I would also ask a question. How many that voted are Active Revolver shooters and hold a classification? No way to tell.

Before changes are made because of what is posted by a few (I include myself in that few) USPSA should be assured that the numbers are not tainted by those that do not participate.

It might now be important to note that Limited has a "no prototypes" rule...requiring 500 components to be produced before they are legal to hang on your gun.

In Limited, they always have been somewhat generous on how they look at things. A common example is to put a 6in (lightened/milled) STI slide, in 40S&W, on a Springfield frame.

I agree with the 500 or whatever number is chosen. After reading what BARITONE so aptly penned, I can agree with the "Like Limited" ideas. As a revolver shooter, I have had some bad experiences at matches as a minority (shoots revolver, works for a living) . I really want the division to move forward but I also want it as stock as possible to attract those that get scared away when all they see is Open Blasters at a match.

Can someone answer one question for me: How many classified Revolver shooters are there?

I guess I am just a little thick. Comes from shooting too much revolver I guess. Maybe it is time for a vacation to Singlestack

Gary:

DON'T YOU DARE SWITCH TO SINGLESTACK!!! I will hunt you down and superglue a 625 to your hand permanently if necessary!!!

Jeff

Can someone answer one question for me: How many classified Revolver shooters are there?

Gary, the answer is 879 (per the USPSA website).

Where do they all hide????????????????????

That number is skewed...Some just have the classification and don't use it, and others have fallen away from the sport altogether. We really only have (in my guesstimate) about 50-100 PRACTICING wheelgunners in USPSA, and only about half of those actually shoot major matches. When you spread that many people out across the country, it makes for some sparse attendence at the majors. We are getting some of those 879 interested now though, and the REVOlution continues to grow. We just need to convince people that they are NOT shooting against all those open and limited guys, but against OTHER REVOLVER SHOOTERS!!! Spread the word....

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Gary:

DON'T YOU DARE SWITCH TO SINGLESTACK!!! I will hunt you down and superglue a 625 to your hand permanently if necessary!!!

Jeff

That could force me into Singlestack Jeff. I don't have a 625 so you would have to give me one Ain't much I won't do for a new revolver. Besides, I can't count past 6.

Regards,

Gary

[Carmoney]

We really only have (in my guesstimate) about 50-100 PRACTICING wheelgunners in USPSA, and only about half of those actually shoot major matches.

Ah hell, Jeff, I'll bet it's way more than that......how many USPSA-affiliated clubs are there? Most of them have at least one or two shooters who are regular wheelgunners, don't you think? We've shown we can round up between 30 and 40 wheels between two sectional matches (KS and MS) on the same weekend. We've got 30 or so signed up for the Summer Blast already.

Think of all the local guys who don't travel beyond their own club. I can think of a couple at my own local club who love shooting revolver, but only at our weekend matches.

I'll bet there's at least a couple hundred practicing USPSA roundgunners out there.....and the field's growing.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Carmoney

[Bill Nesbitt]

I've been reading the rule book.

Actually Revolver rules aren't too bad the way they are.

A few tweaks will do it. We all agree that we want revolver participation to grow in USPSA. Here's my suggestion: A tweak to rule 17 plus parts of Rule 19 need fixed.

Rule 17: As written with this note. OFM revolvers examples are for instance:S&W N-Frame. A 625 with a 25-2 barrel is approved. A model 28 S&W that has been rechambered in 44 Special is approved. A 625 with a 325? cylinder is OK. (is there a better way to word this?)

19.2: Replacement barrels, provided the barrel profile is similar to an OFM standard. Barrels may be shortened or lightened from OFM length or profile.

19.4 Modifications to cylinder to accept "Moon Clips". Chambers may be chamfered. Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained. Smoothing the trigger face, removing the hammer spur, use of overtravel stop, conversion to double action only and addition of ball detent are permitted. Grip frames may be modified to round butt style.

If we use the 500 produced rule and it is tightly enforced we may outlaw many guns that are in use now. If however it is 500 N-Frames rather than 500 625 dash whatever# then we would be OK.

Have I missed anything? I think this would allow most people to drag out an IDPA, carry, or another old revolver that has been gathering dust. It still leaves out PPC guns but I don't know what to do about that with out opening up a can of worms. It wouldn't be that expensive to screw a normal barrel on one.

[Barrettone]

We really only have (in my guesstimate) about 50-100 PRACTICING wheelgunners in USPSA, and only about half of those actually shoot major matches.

Ah hell, Jeff, I'll bet it's way more than that......how many USPSA-affiliated clubs are there? Most of them have at least one or two shooters who are regular wheelgunners, don't you think? We've shown we can round up between 30 and 40 wheels between two sectional matches (KS and MS) on the same weekend. We've got 30 or so signed up for the Summer Blast already.

Think of all the local guys who don't travel beyond their own club. I can think of a couple at my own local club who love shooting revolver, but only at our weekend matches.

I'll bet there's at least a couple hundred practicing USPSA roundgunners out there.....and the field's growing.

Yea...I guess you are probably right...I never really thought about it, but we have a couple of guys kicking around our club like you say. Now if we could just get them all to mobilize to Nationals...Wouldn't that be a sight?!?!

[hdgun]

I've been reading the rule book.

Actually Revolver rules aren't too bad the way they are.

A few tweaks will do it. We all agree that we want revolver participation to grow in USPSA. Here's my suggestion: A tweak to rule 17 plus parts of Rule 19 need fixed.

Rule 17: As written with this note. OFM revolvers examples are for instance:S&W N-Frame. A 625 with a 25-2 barrel is approved. A model 28 S&W that has been rechambered in 44 Special is approved. A 625 with a 325? cylinder is OK. (is there a better way to word this?)

19.2: Replacement barrels, provided the barrel profile is similar to an OFM standard. Barrels may be shortened or lightened from OFM length or profile.

19.4 Modifications to cylinder to accept "Moon Clips". Chambers may be chamfered. Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained. Smoothing the trigger face, removing the hammer spur, use of overtravel stop, conversion to double action only and addition of ball detent are permitted. Grip frames may be modified to round butt style.

If we use the 500 produced rule and it is tightly enforced we may outlaw many guns that are in use now. If however it is 500 N-Frames rather than 500 625 dash whatever# then we would be OK.

Have I missed anything? I think this would allow most people to drag out an IDPA, carry, or another old revolver that has been gathering dust. It still leaves out PPC guns but I don't know what to do about that with out opening up a can of worms. It wouldn't be that expensive to screw a normal barrel on one.

Is it me or does 19.2 conridict it self.

why are we making this harder than what it is. A revolver is a revolver, no matter what we do to it.

As of right now there is no 500 rule, so why put it in?

if the rules say replacment barrels, ok, why complicate it with profiles and lightening.

just leave it with OK for replacement barrels.

I thought the goal hear was to open the revo div to just about any revo. (LIMITED REVO)

PPC guns, custom barreled guns, mooned guns, ect:

I know if some one showed up at a match with his PPC heavy barreled gun, I would encourage him to shoot, not frown apon it. I know he has to work a little harder pushing that tank around a stage. But if thats what he chooses, so be it.

[Carmoney]

Exactly....the last thing in the world I'd worry about is some guy with a sluggy ol' PPC gun.

The more this gets discussed, the more I wish you guys had never started the conversation at all. I shot a lot of major matches last year, and never once was there an equipment controversy in the Revo ranks. Never once! So why the hell are we starting one now??

Edited June 20, 2006 by Carmoney

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Exactly....the last thing in the world I'd worry about is some guy with a sluggy ol' PPC gun.

The more this gets discussed, the more I wish you guys had never started the conversation at all. I shot a lot of major matches last year, and never once was there an equipment controversy in the Revo ranks. Never once! So why the hell are we starting one now??

QUOTE(Bill Nesbitt @ Jun 19 2006, 07:00 PM)

I've been reading the rule book.

Actually Revolver rules aren't too bad the way they are.

A few tweaks will do it. We all agree that we want revolver participation to grow in USPSA. Here's my suggestion: A tweak to rule 17 plus parts of Rule 19 need fixed.

Rule 17: As written with this note. OFM revolvers examples are for instance:S&W N-Frame. A 625 with a 25-2 barrel is approved. A model 28 S&W that has been rechambered in 44 Special is approved. A 625 with a 325? cylinder is OK. (is there a better way to word this?)

19.2: Replacement barrels, provided the barrel profile is similar to an OFM standard. Barrels may be shortened or lightened from OFM length or profile.

19.4 Modifications to cylinder to accept "Moon Clips". Chambers may be chamfered. Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained. Smoothing the trigger face, removing the hammer spur, use of overtravel stop, conversion to double action only and addition of ball detent are permitted. Grip frames may be modified to round butt style.

If we use the 500 produced rule and it is tightly enforced we may outlaw many guns that are in use now. If however it is 500 N-Frames rather than 500 625 dash whatever# then we would be OK.

Have I missed anything? I think this would allow most people to drag out an IDPA, carry, or another old revolver that has been gathering dust. It still leaves out PPC guns but I don't know what to do about that with out opening up a can of worms. It wouldn't be that expensive to screw a normal barrel on one.

From Page one of this discussion:

Leave it alone with the exception of clarifying what is there in Appendix D5 s17, 18, and 19.

But what do I know

AND

The clarifications I would like to see:

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components), produced

by an OFM and available to the general pubic (except prototypes) is

permitted. Providing it has none of the prohibited modifications

18. Modifications such as weights, compensators, ports or other devices to control and/or to reduce

recoil are prohibited. (define control or reduce recoil. Is this the barrel lightening we discussed?) If the complete revolver in 17 is factory ported, it is not a modification it is a production enhancement so is it allowed? (I know the answer but others may not.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers, triggers, cylinder

releases and cylinders, (including chamfering and moon clip conversions);

19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length is the same as the

OFM standard; Does a bull barrel meet this???? Does a lighter barrel meet this?? clarify please

19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage

(e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

19.4 Modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”. DELETE covered in 19.1

20. “Self-loading” revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this

Division.

Regards,

So now that we have beat this to death in 4 pages it is now coming full circle back to page 1??

Regards,

[Bill Nesbitt]

I guess all I was trying to do is loosen the rules and allow more revolvers in. As the rules stand right now none of the revolvers I am shooting are allowed in USPSA because the cylinders are camfered. Is that what you want??? After all we have had a ruling from John Amidon that cosmetic holes can't be drilled in a barrel lug. What's next?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I guess all I was trying to do is loosen the rules and allow more revolvers in. As the rules stand right now none of the revolvers I am shooting are allowed in USPSA because the cylinders are camfered. Is that what you want??? After all we have had a ruling from John Amidon that cosmetic holes can't be drilled in a barrel lug. What's next?

Bill,

I totally agree with your post. The rules we have are fine but need clarification. My argument is it has taken 4 pages to get back to that thought.

It is a lot easier to implement and understand existing rules that have been modified than it is to start all over again. Read what I wrote for 19.1. It covers the chamfer and the moonclip conversion and is only a slight change from existing.

Again, many of those that will be enforcing these rules will not be Revolver shooters and could care less about revolver shooters. We need to make it as easy as possible for them to understand even if we have to put it in BIG PRINT

Regards,

Gary

[Bill Nesbitt]

Gary,

I wasn't directing that last post to you, rather the board as a whole. Hard to type what you mean sometimes.

Bill

[10mmdave]

Exactly....the last thing in the world I'd worry about is some guy with a sluggy ol' PPC gun.

The more this gets discussed, the more I wish you guys had never started the conversation at all. I shot a lot of major matches last year, and never once was there an equipment controversy in the Revo ranks. Never once! So why the hell are we starting one now??

You can't hide your head in the sand Mike, these are valid arguments, what was fine a year

ago is now not fine as this thread and the other that started the whole thing showed.

A year ago a NROI individual said bull barrels were fine, now that same individual says no.

I'm sure your right, nobody said squat at the last Nationals, revo guys shoot a lot of

other places than the Nationals.

We are the competitors, not the rule enforcers, what's fine in Iowa may not be fine in Barry.

As I stated before, anyone can point at your gun and say "that's not legal" !

Do you want that to happen on stage 3 of the Nationals ?

IMO (which don't mean sh-t !) if we fix these issues now we won't be dealing with these issues

later as the revo division grows.

Somebody has the tag line "if it spins it's in !" just add "no ports or compensators" and leave

the 6 shot part in there and we're done !

[Carmoney]

As the rules stand right now none of the revolvers I am shooting are allowed in USPSA because the cylinders are camfered.

Now see, Bill, I don't think that's actually true. Somewhere in my basement I have a printed-off email from John Amidon reiterating that if the part is modified in such a way that it simply replicates a factory-available part, it's OK. Chamfered cylinders are factory stock on some 625s. So it's fine--end of issue.

[Carmoney]

You can't hide your head in the sand Mike, these are valid arguments, what was fine a year

ago is now not fine as this thread and the other that started the whole thing showed.

Dave, I guess if we manage to get things clarified, then OK. But we already have at least one dedicated revolver guy who is expressing some frustration with the majority's preferences (RGS), and the absolute last thing we need is to splinter our already-too-small group by asking for advance rulings and start hashing this stuff around publicly, creating a potential "us and them" situation within our own ranks.

I don't want to see things go like they have in Production, where there was a big ugly scene at the World Shoot because some shooters thought they saw a "silver spot" under the points leader's trigger guard--"silver spot" that couldn't have possibly had any impact on the outcome of the match.

As somebody has already pointed out, Limited Division has not been plagued with a hyper-technical interpretation of the rules--people know what's OK and what's not. This has also been the case with Revo, until now.

But now the pot is stirred. So I guess we'll see what happens, huh?

[10mmdave]

You can't hide your head in the sand Mike, these are valid arguments, what was fine a year

ago is now not fine as this thread and the other that started the whole thing showed.

Dave, I guess if we manage to get things clarified, then OK. But we already have at least one dedicated revolver guy who is expressing some frustration with the majority's preferences (RGS), and the absolute last thing we need is to splinter our already-too-small group by asking for advance rulings and start hashing this stuff around publicly, creating a potential "us and them" situation within our own ranks.

I don't want to see things go like they have in Production, where there was a big ugly scene at the World Shoot because some shooters thought they saw a "silver spot" under the points leader's trigger guard--"silver spot" that couldn't have possibly had any impact on the outcome of the match.

As somebody has already pointed out, Limited Division has not been plagued with a hyper-technical interpretation of the rules--people know what's OK and what's not. This has also been the case with Revo, until now.

But now the pot is stirred. So I guess we'll see what happens, huh?

Sorry mike but you forgot the most important part of my quote up above,

the fact that what once was, is no longer !

If we can define the rules clearer then there should be no controversy, it's just getting them

nailed down so everybody feels okay with them.

The World shoot is a perfect example of why we need to fix the rules regarding our division,

we've already seen 2 different opinions from RO's during this thread, we don't need that kind

of controversy at a major match. (and don't forget, we're looking at USPSA changes, not IPSC)

Yes the pot has been stirred, let's pick out the bay leaves and add any other ingredients that we

can so everybody can enjoy dinner.

So from the point we are at now.....do we have a workable set of changes ??

We've talked about chamfering,

We've talked about Ti cylinders,

We've talked at length about barrels, and personally, if this needs to get pulled to satisfy

the masses then fine, just clarify what a replacement barrel is (like ICORE maybe ??)

[Carmoney]

Yes the pot has been stirred, let's pick out the bay leaves and add any other ingredients that we

can so everybody can enjoy dinner.

Sounds good to me, Dave. I hope we can make it as inclusive and non-picky as possible.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

{SNIP}If we can define the rules clearer then there should be no controversy, it's just getting them

nailed down so everybody feels okay with them.

{SNIP AGAIN}

So from the point we are at now.....do we have a workable set of changes ??

We've talked about chamfering,

We've talked about Ti cylinders,

We've talked at length about barrels, and personally, if this needs to get pulled to satisfy

the masses then fine, just clarify what a replacement barrel is (like ICORE maybe ??)

OK, so does this work for you????

APPENDIX D5

Revolver Standard Division

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) /

19mm (0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, see below.

10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment /No

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

17. Any complete revolver or a revolver assembled from components produced

by an OFM and available to the general pubic (except prototypes) is permitted providing it has none of the prohibited modifications

18. Modifications such as weights, compensators, ports or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil are prohibited.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of and/or modification to, sights, hammers, triggers, cylinder

releases and cylinders, (including chamfering and moon clip conversions);

19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length is the same as the

OFM standard

19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage

(e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

20. “Self-loading” revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this

Division.

So, let's take this as a start and see what you all think. We have got to have rules. Shoot what you brung is not rules. The modifications I have made seem to address all the points discussed including lighter and heavier barrels. Rules state same length NOT same weight.

Now make your changes or agree with what is written. I don't really care what happens, I just bought a 9MM for production just in case this all goes into the proverbial water closet.

Regards,

PS: HEY MOONEY, I may want some of that 9 back

[hdgun]

Gary, why shoot anything other than what you have been?

Even with possible rule changes at hand, shooting a revo wont change. These sudgested rules don't mean squat. They may be placed to clear things up so people like my self don't do anything wrong.

Before I made any kind of mod to my barrel I read the rules, and the way I read them said I was good to go. OK, I was wrong. But this will CLEAR things up.

This is all IMHO everyone wants to achive.

Do you really think the holes I put in my barrel made any kind of differance?

I personally dont think they did IMO.

Hey, for that matter, I even beat Dave P. with a 5" 610. HI DAVE!

The differance is, some shooters have replaced barrels on a 625 with a 6" or 6.5" 25 barrel.

Why did they do it? To gain a personal advantage. IE: longer sight radius, lighter barrel, maybe.

Being one of the minorities shooting a 610, dont have the luxery of that kind of barrel swap.

All I would like is to have the same KIND of advantage a 625 has. Without changing guns.

I think having a rule change or rule rewording is due to cover items like this.