Knowing The Rules

[AzShooter]

I find it hard to believe I was the only one noticing some improper scoring at a recent match. People were making up their own rules as the day went by, counting targets as hit when they didn't go down, shooting targets while on the ground, having targets not be activated correctly and have a stage changed after a squad had fired it but the stage was not thrown out.

I heard the common cry "If the stage discription doesn't say you can't do something then you can do it."

Also, ICORE requires that all stages are 6 shot neutral but that has never been explained. If an 8 shot has one less reload is it really 6 shot neutral?

Edited April 28, 2006 by AzShooter

[underlug]

I find it hard to believe I was the only one noticing some improper scoring at a recent match. People were making up their own rules as the day went by, counting targets as hit when they didn't go down, shooting targets while on the ground, having targets not be activated correctly and have a stage changed after a squad had fired it but the stage was not thrown out.

I heard the common cry "If the stage discription doesn't say you can't do something then you can do it."

Also, ICORE requires that all stages are 6 shot neutral but that has never been explained. If an 8 shot has one less reload is it really 6 shot neutral?

If we are talking about the same match, I feel the pain. In my opinion, three, or, possibly, four stages could have been successfully challenged. That is why I feel that you either have a "friendly" or a "competitive" match. If it is a competive match, you are shooting against everybody else AND the stage description/design. You can't go by "That is what the stage designer meant" when there is ambiguity in the stage description unless you tell everybody before the match starts.. And, if targets are supposed to be shot after a popper is activated, that target either has to be out of sight from the shooting position or the stage description has to say "engage the target after the popper". Props that work differently for different shooters cannot be tolerated in a competitive match. I do not think you can expect shooters in a competitive match to shoot the stages in any other way than to their best advantage. If you are talking ICORE, we are not mandated to "shoot them as we see them". We can require target order, etc., in our stage description if necessary to preclude advantage even in our field type courses. It's easy to be critical of people that do all the work and I hope this isn't taken that way, but, as things get more competitive, things have to be tightened up, or, there is going to be a big mess. My opinion, worth what you paid for it.

[Waltermitty]

It's an interesting phenomenon that I'm at a loss to explain. You see it from Monopoly games to card games to shooting games. It is apparently natural for significant percentages of the population to say they want to play a particular kind of game, then as soon as the game starts they try to, well, um, cheat to gain advantage and "win".

There's a fine line between playing the rules to your maximum advantage and spoiling the fun by doing things clearly disallowed just to get an advantage on everybody else. I guess I'm one of those strange birds that thinks it's more fun to play by a standard set of rules and may the best player win.

The really bad thing is that a lot of these types will brag about what they did after the fact as if they're proud that they put it on the poor saps that weren't "smart" enough to do what they did.

[pskys2]

+1 Waltermitty, that "bragging" on how they put it over on everyone is my definition of Bad Sportsmanship. I can handle a gamesman, martial artist, heck someone breaking a rule cause they thought it was ok or about anything else. But, I won't hang around with someone who crows about evading the rules. That goes for life, not just competition.

Edited April 28, 2006 by pskys2

[Bill Sahlberg]

For an all fun club match or good practice, rules can be bent for the fun factor. However, if there are more than one revo the playing field must be level. This is why I like the Steel Challenge, it simply cannot be shot any other way than is intended. I also shoot ICORE with both 6 shot and 8 shot revos but USPSA only with my 6 shot. I still shoot my 8 shot revo in minor in Open, Ltd, L-10, and in Production at USPSA matches. They leveled the playing field by allowing only 6 shots whereas IDPA makes you load only 6 with two empty holes that make reloading a bitch. At any competition, nobody should be penalized for thinking smarter to gain a competitive adavntage. With this said, severe gamesmanship may be borderline but leaving steel standing and shooting targets that are on the ground is just blatant cheating. We all shoot revolvers for the fun factor, it is never fun when someone cheats and can gret away with it.

Bill Sahlberg

1996 Magna Cum Laude

University of Jeruslaem

as a 8 round revo gamester

[Bubber]

Not having shot the stage in question. I can say that it is possible to engage an activated target before the gets moving on some stages. Sometimes there is a full second before the popper will fall and then start the sequence in motion. As a setup crew member and a dabbler in stage design I try to set up so that the said target would not be visible until activated.

Azshooter asked

"Also, ICORE requires that all stages are 6 shot neutral but that has never been explained. If an 8 shot has one less reload is it really 6 shot neutral? "

I believe it can be 6 shot netrual as long as ithe extra shot is a harder/longer shot and is available at another position that will have to be shot from anyway while not requiring a reload for a 6 shooter to engage it at the other location. (Clear as Mud)

Case in Point is CS024. There is the opportunity to skip one reload with an 8 shot. But to do so would require you to step out of a baricade fire two shots, move to the other barricade fire 6 shots and then return to take the two shots at another target. Or step out of the barricade fire two shots reload take the other two shots at a target then move on the the last barricade. Either way it is a wash and porbably just as fast to shoot the same as the 6 shot would. (More Mud)

[tightloop]

Some people admire people who keep their mouth shut at the thought of being thought a fool...rather than opening it and removing all doubt...I prefer to tell it like it is..regardless of the outcome...

[underlug]

For an all fun club match or good practice, rules can be bent for the fun factor. However, if there are more than one revo the playing field must be level. This is why I like the Steel Challenge, it simply cannot be shot any other way than is intended. I also shoot ICORE with both 6 shot and 8 shot revos but USPSA only with my 6 shot. I still shoot my 8 shot revo in minor in Open, Ltd, L-10, and in Production at USPSA matches. They leveled the playing field by allowing only 6 shots whereas IDPA makes you load only 6 with two empty holes that make reloading a bitch. At any competition, nobody should be penalized for thinking smarter to gain a competitive adavntage. With this said, severe gamesmanship may be borderline but leaving steel standing and shooting targets that are on the ground is just blatant cheating. We all shoot revolvers for the fun factor, it is never fun when someone cheats and can gret away with it.

Bill Sahlberg

1996 Magna Cum Laude

University of Jeruslaem

as a 8 round revo gamester

The problem is that it is always a matter of degree. Then, after the fact, the match director comes around and gives his opinion as to whether something is "appropriate" or not. The solution is tighter stage descriptions that do not lend themselves to multiple interpretations and stage designs that do not offer target availability not desired by the stage designer. If the match director is put in the position to have to opine, no one is ever sure if he is deciding the claim on some form of merit, ego protection, or, by who performed the alleged aberration.

[J.Bagakis]

I find it hard to believe I was the only one noticing some improper scoring at a recent match. People were making up their own rules as the day went by, counting targets as hit when they didn't go down, shooting targets while on the ground, having targets not be activated correctly and have a stage changed after a squad had fired it but the stage was not thrown out.

I heard the common cry "If the stage discription doesn't say you can't do something then you can do it."

Also, ICORE requires that all stages are 6 shot neutral but that has never been explained. If an 8 shot has one less reload is it really 6 shot neutral?

I feel your pain AzShooter, I shot the same match you are talking about with the Richmond shooters from Nor Cal.

The Limited Match winner Dan Carden and Second Open Rich K. were aslo on my squad.

I would like to make it clear that our whole squad shot the stages as they were intended to be shot. We did not shoot targets that have not been activated yet (cheating).

I won stage 2 which was throw out and stage 8 (now stage 7) Shooting them as they were intended to be shot. I was very disappionted to find out that stage 2 was going to be thrown out because of the Gammers that took advantage of the RO's (that cost me second Limited).

I don't know how the shooters that Gamed or Cheated can take pride in their finish in the match!

I talked to the match director the day after the match, he told me he only had one day to set up the stages and limited help, also most of the RO's he had were new. I think they still put on a great match and did a great job. Unforchenly several shooters took advantage of the RO's an shot the stages as they were not intended to be shot (Cheating)!

All this could have been avoided with better stage descriptions and better stage set-up.

My thoughts, for what they are worth!