A Few Rules Questions

[Suches]

I'd appreciate some learned discussion on some unrelated rules topics:

1. Does the rulebook actually say somewhere that you can't drop an empty mag with a round in the chamber? The definitions section says: "Should the CoF call for a Reload with Retention [or Tac Reload] and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained." But what if the CoF doesn't "call for" such a reload and the competitor reloads by dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber? Frankly, I think the SO should have more important things to worry about than whether there's a round in the chamber.

2. How much leeway should be given a new (or elderly) shooter who's a little loose with the muzzle of an unloaded gun? For example, a prone shooter who (before the SO can stop him) reholsters or almost reholsters while prone, resulting in the barrel pointing uprange. I've even had elderly shooters "sweep" their own hips when missing the holster while holstering.

3. Can 3 speedloaders be carried just on the weak side, enabling reloads "magazine style," rather than 2 on strong side and 1 on weak?

4. If a competitor does a tac reload or RWR while seated in a vehicle, and the entire CoF is to be completed in the vehicle, what are the permitted methods of retention?

5. When Vickers scoring separate strings at significant distances at the same targets, say 25 yards freestyle, then 25 yards weak hand, how do you discern stacking (makeup shots freestyle, which could compensate for misses weakhand)? Under these circumstances, should you always paste between strings? (Pretty time consuming at 25 yards.)

6. How do you discern a good faith attempt to retain a mag? Is it actually in the rulebook?

7. How much responsibility should the scorekeeper have? If the SO is really concentrating on the shooter, it seems only the scorekeeper is in a good position to see a lot of procedural issues.

8. How strictly are you enforcing equipment issues (Uncle Mike's holsters, etc.) on folks who show up at a match in good faith and just don't know better?

9. What are the rules on pocket stiffeners in vests, for the purpose of improving the push back for draw? I think the rulebook only addresses stiffeners that hold pockets open for reloads.

I want to say, too, that our current MD at South River Gun Club in Georgia has completely revitalized a program that was good but complacent. At every match now we have returning lapsed shooters, new shooters, and even IPSC crossovers. I even hear good feedback at (gasp) IPSC matches. If you want to revitalize your club, you might want to ask him for some guidance. (gadpa.com)

Thanks!

[Gun Geek]

Actually good questions, I'll take a try at a few...

1) There's not really a difference between dropping an empty mag or a partial mag with a round in the chamber. The principle is that in IDPA you are not counting rounds. To drop an empty mag with one in the pipe you have to be counting or you do it by accident. If by accident, then the guy will probably rack the slide. To me, no advantage gained by dropping the mag, no PE (unless a TAC/RWR is required). If the shooter counts rounds, drops the empty mag, inserts a fresh one, they have done a speed reload, and earns a PE. The SO should ABSOULUTELY be worried about a round in the chamber. What they shouldn't be worried about is rounds in a dropped mag.

2) VERY DAMN LITTLE. With a new shooter (elderly or not) I work hard to make sure they follow instructions. If they are going to end prone, I tell them before the stage starts how we are going to handle the re-holster. If they sweep once with a checked gun, I will give a warning. The second time they get a DQ (done it). If they sweep the crowd with a loaded gun for some reason - DQ. If they sweep themselves, I make note. If they are habitual, they may get a DQ (never done this). To me there is NO ROOM FOR SAFETY MISTAKES. Everthing else we can work with.

3) Don't know

4) Just not in a shirt pocket. Vest pocket or those big slash pockets on 5.11s are fine. Tough MD making you do a RWR in a car!

5) IMHO Why are you doing Vickers at 25 yards? You'd be hard pressed to say you needed to defend yourself shooting 25 yards (duty to run!). 25 yards should be seen in standards and be limited vickers, again, IMHO. Anyway, if you aren't doing LV, why do you care about stacking? Can't have it both ways, this ain't USPSA

6) Don't know if it is in the book, but it is a judgement. It is usually obvious (they're flustered and looking for the mag). If it is not obvious (once in 4 years) I usually call it based on whether they got an advantage by not retaining it (who cares what their intentions were, just the results). Usually a bobble will cost time, and if it does, that's enough penalty. Again a judgement call.

7) Score keepers should have lots - you're right they can see PEs, and catch stacking or sequence problems.

8) Newbies get a wide berth on 1st match with gear. Heck, if they're new, they're not going to be competitive anyway, who cares, let's have some fun. I explain the rules and the reason behind them, and let the guys play. If they are Masters in disguise, you'll see it, and then they get the gear qestion. BTW this is for a local match. A sanction match - rules are rules.

9) Don't think there are any rules on vest stiffeners. Burkett and Langdon use big cable ties (I've seen it). I use a big shirt with a stiffener. Much more likely to be my carry clothing than a 5.11 vest.

Glad to hear a club going good again. I think that shooters respect fairly tight (not nazi) and even enforcement of the rules. The know the game before they get there and can practice it.

[Joe D]

Any of you Georgia guys going to shoot the Alabama match?

[ShootinginAZ]

The rule book only recognizes Tac loads, Retention reloads and slde lock or emergency reloads. If the slide isn't locked back then you have to perform a tac load or RWR. In the new rule book there is no allowance for a good faith effort to retain a mag anymore. You either do or don't, not doing so is a PE.

The score keeper should be looking for PE's as well as the SO. Most of the time an SO can make a PE call as they're close to the action however, safety coming first ,the SO may be more concerned with that issue and miss a call. That's where the score keeper comes in.

Very little leeway should be given to any shooter where safety is concerned. A SO should make it clear to the shooter how he may holster his firearm in a stage that ends in a prone, seated or kneeling position before ever allowing them to load. The SO is required to instruct shooters to unload and show clear when the cof is completed. This is a good time to coach the shooter through a safe and acceptable means of unloading and holstering. If a shooter does attempt to holster in an unsafe manner the SO should be ready to give a muzzle or stop command and stop any unsafe activity. Any violation at our ranges is a dq.

[AikiDale]

Anyone know why you can not retain a mag in a shirt pocket???

[Gun Geek]

Anyone know why you can not retain a mag in a shirt pocket???

IDPA didn't want a Tactical T-Shirt equipment race?

[AikiDale]

Anyone know why you can not retain a mag in a shirt pocket???

IDPA didn't want a Tactical T-Shirt equipment race?

OH! I guess that makes sense. As long as it wasn't something flaky like whoever made the rule did not have a pocket on their tactical Izod Golf shirt.

[Clay1]

Aki, cut and paste from the rule book:

"Proper Magazine Retention: A place for a partially loaded magazine to be stowed before firing the first shot after a reload. These places include: pants pocket; vest pocket; jacket pocket; waistband; magazine pouch. The use of specially designed pockets, shirt pockets, upper vest pockets, hands or teeth is NOT permitted"

Suchs #1, on page 41 of the current rulebook, cut and pasted: "NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Reload with Retention and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained."

#2 Absolutely no leeway when it comes to muzzle control.

#3 cut and paste (C&P) from the rule book: "2. Two full speedloaders/moon clips may be worn directly in front of the holster and they must be positioned as close to the holster as possible. One additional may be worn behind the centerline on either the right or left side for a total of three speedloaders/full moon clips on the belt. "

#4 See above where I answer Aki's question. That is in the definition part of the rulebook and not under the reload section - see page 77.

#5 Vickers = shoot as many times as you want. Limited Vickers means you can only shoot X number of rounds as described in the walk through.

#6. I electronically searched the rulebook. The term "good faith" is not used in the current rule book. See the answer to number 4.

#7 In the best case senario both the score keeper and the SO will have gone through the SO class and be certified. Typically the Scorekeeper watches for foot faults and counts number of rounds in a limited vickers COF. The SO is glued to the trigger finger and gun.

#8 I know very well what the rule book says, but let them shoot with whatever they brought at a club level match with the understanding that they are just shooting for fun for the day and are not shooting for score. They can't compete at a State level match.

#9 511 Vests have this type of insert material and is very popular for IDPA.

Hope that this helps,

Rick

Edited March 28, 2006 by Clay1

[Mark Perez]

shootinginAz,

welcome to the forum!

Mark

[freeidaho]

#5: from page 12: CoF 7. Any CoF that requires the shooter to re-engage a target in two (2) or more strings of fire MUST be scored Limited Vickers or scored and taped between strings.

You can get your own copy of the rulebook by becoming a member of IDPA, or by going to http://www.idpa.com.

Ken Reed

[Suches]

Any of you Georgia guys going to shoot the Alabama match?

Joe,

I can't. I'll be out of town on business. I don't know about the other usual suspects.

[AikiDale]

Okay, please understand I am not trying to stir a pot here, just looking for the reasoning, tradition or whatever behind the no shirt pocket or upper vest pocket rule. Lower vest pocket is okay but upper vest pocket is not. Dale is confused. Most rules have some reasoning and this had to be discussed at some point by the rule committee, BOD or whichever entity imposed the rule. I am happy to play by the rules without question. This particular rule sets off my non-sequitor alarm and that makes me curious. Not rebellious, just curious.

[Clay1]

Dale, I wish that I could give you a solid answer, I can't. My perception is that is was made to have everyone doing a RWR to a similar standard and they didn't want people trying to Game the reload. Yes, I know it is a game and that is exactly how this boy shoots it with my G34. I don't shoot it with a G26 subcompact.

That's my guess and that is all it is a guess. Maybe someone else will fill us both in. I prefer this concept instead of someone trying to tell me that it is more realistic or how you would do it on the street.

Rick

[RickB]

Dale, I wish that I could give you a solid answer, I can't. My perception is that is was made to have everyone doing a RWR to a similar standard and they didn't want people trying to Game the reload. Yes, I know it is a game and that is exactly how this boy shoots it with my G34. I don't shoot it with a G26 subcompact.

That's my guess and that is all it is a guess. Maybe someone else will fill us both in. I prefer this concept instead of someone trying to tell me that it is more realistic or how you would do it on the street.

Rick

I think it is to prevent someone from retaining a mag by ejecting straight into the pocket. Along the same lines as not allowing stiffening of the lower pockets.

[AikiDale]

Dale, I wish that I could give you a solid answer, I can't. My perception is that is was made to have everyone doing a RWR to a similar standard and they didn't want people trying to Game the reload. Yes, I know it is a game and that is exactly how this boy shoots it with my G34. I don't shoot it with a G26 subcompact.

That's my guess and that is all it is a guess. Maybe someone else will fill us both in. I prefer this concept instead of someone trying to tell me that it is more realistic or how you would do it on the street.

Rick

Some of my carry guns aren't IDPA legal. For about 10 years I only owned one pistol and I carried it concealed before we had a concealed carry law. If only I'd known you couldn't conceal a 6" S&W 629....

Consistency is as good a guess as any. Thanks.

Dale, I wish that I could give you a solid answer, I can't. My perception is that is was made to have everyone doing a RWR to a similar standard and they didn't want people trying to Game the reload. Yes, I know it is a game and that is exactly how this boy shoots it with my G34. I don't shoot it with a G26 subcompact.

That's my guess and that is all it is a guess. Maybe someone else will fill us both in. I prefer this concept instead of someone trying to tell me that it is more realistic or how you would do it on the street.

Rick

I think it is to prevent someone from retaining a mag by ejecting straight into the pocket. Along the same lines as not allowing stiffening of the lower pockets.

That makes sense too. Thanks!

[Mayonaise]

I'd appreciate some learned discussion on some unrelated rules topics:

1. Does the rulebook actually say somewhere that you can't drop an empty mag with a round in the chamber? The definitions section says: "Should the CoF call for a Reload with Retention [or Tac Reload] and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained." But what if the CoF doesn't "call for" such a reload and the competitor reloads by dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber? Frankly, I think the SO should have more important things to worry about than whether there's a round in the chamber.

No can do. If a shooter dumps an empty mag and drives on I gig them. If the shooter picks up the empty before shooting, no procedural. If the shooter realizes what he's done and racks the slide ejecting the chambered round and chambering a new round I don't usually gig them since they haven't done so to gain a time advantage. YMMV

2. How much leeway should be given a new (or elderly) shooter who's a little loose with the muzzle of an unloaded gun? For example, a prone shooter who (before the SO can stop him) reholsters or almost reholsters while prone, resulting in the barrel pointing uprange. I've even had elderly shooters "sweep" their own hips when missing the holster while holstering.

Best to have a zero tolerance in this area. If they break muzzle safe points. Game over.

If they sweep themselves only I give them a heads up.

4. If a competitor does a tac reload or RWR while seated in a vehicle, and the entire CoF is to be completed in the vehicle, what are the permitted methods of retention?

Dumping a partial in the car is not retention. Go with the rule book.

5. When Vickers scoring separate strings at significant distances at the same targets, say 25 yards freestyle, then 25 yards weak hand, how do you discern stacking (makeup shots freestyle, which could compensate for misses weakhand)? Under these circumstances, should you always paste between strings? (Pretty time consuming at 25 yards.)

The COF you're talking about was bad design. If a shooter is obviously "stacking" a FTDR is in order. It should have been Ltd Vickers. It made no sense IMO as a "scenario".

6. How do you discern a good faith attempt to retain a mag? Is it actually in the rulebook?

Again it's the evil "judgement" call but like "what's Porn?" you'll know it when you see it.

7. How much responsibility should the scorekeeper have? If the SO is really concentrating on the shooter, it seems only the scorekeeper is in a good position to see a lot of procedural issues.

They are your second set of eyes. Task them to watch the hits (head shots etc...). If they see a procedural that the CSO doesn't see. They should consult with the CSO and allow him/her to make the call. This is important in big matches.

8. How strictly are you enforcing equipment issues (Uncle Mike's holsters, etc.) on folks who show up at a match in good faith and just don't know better?

At the local level it's not a big issue. I'd let them know about it in case they are headed to a sanctioned match where they might run into a problem.

9. What are the rules on pocket stiffeners in vests, for the purpose of improving the push back for draw? I think the rulebook only addresses stiffeners that hold pockets open for reloads.

Basically a non-issue.

I want to say, too, that our current MD at South River Gun Club in Georgia has completely revitalized a program that was good but complacent. At every match now we have returning lapsed shooters, new shooters, and even IPSC crossovers. I even hear good feedback at (gasp) IPSC matches. If you want to revitalize your club, you might want to ask him for some guidance. (gadpa.com)

I think he's done a decent job. Though I'm not surprised by positive feedback from the IPSC guys. The MD's COF design for a large part is IPSC stages and don't really stand the smell test when it comes to the principles section of the IDPA rule book.

I also think he gets too wrapped up in the "mechanical props" aspects of COF design instead of focusing on what IDPA is about. He's really an IPSC guy at heart. He just hasn't come out of the closet yet.

Headhunter proved for several years that you don't need all the fancy mechanical props to put on a good IDPA match. All you have to do is understand the principles of IDPA and design scenarios that are either realistic or actually based on real events.

Right now there's only one "real" IDPA club running in the Atlanta area IMO. That's Headhunter's Deliverance match.

[Clay1]

If the shooter realizes what he's done and racks the slide ejecting the chambered round and chambering a new round I don't usually gig them since they haven't done so to gain a time advantage.

Where is the time advantage clause in the rule book?

One thing that I have noticed about IDPA vs. USPSA rules is too many times people do what they think is right vs. a more consistant approach from club to club. USPSA has a much better training program for ROs than IDPAs SO training. I feel more confident going from Wisconsin to Florida and seeing the same rules applied the same way at those different locations than I do at IDPA clubs within 10 miles of each other (not a real example but a figure of speech).

I would just like to see the SO training program develop a written training program and more consistant application of the real rules from club to club instead of what someone's individual concept of how the GAME should be played.

Rick

[Mayonaise]

Let me clarify since I didn't really proof my post before posting it.

If the shooter retrieves the empty mag, racks the slide and continues, not procedural.

If the shooter retrieves the empty mag and doesn't rack the slide and continues, a procedural is earned.

Mark

Edited March 31, 2006 by Mayonaise

[Clay1]

If the shooter retrieves the empty mag and doesn't rack the slide and continues, a procedural is earned.

Mark

Mark, why do you get a procedural if you retrieve the empty mag but don't rack the slide? This is cut and paste from page 38 of the current rulebook:

"4. Ammunition Carrier Notes:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind."

Rick

[Bones]

Suches.

Why don't you read the rule book?

There are only about 50 pages of shooter-relavent material, nice pictures and the print is large.

Make (2) copies and you can leave one in your bathroom.

All SOs are worth everypenny they earn and most are worth much more.

Craig

IDPARuleBook2005final.pdf

Edited March 31, 2006 by Bones

[Mayonaise]

Mark, why do you get a procedural if you retrieve the empty mag but don't rack the slide? This is cut and paste from page 38 of the current rulebook:

"4. Ammunition Carrier Notes:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind."

Rick

I agree if he hasn't taken a shot before retrieving and stowing the empty mag.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Mayonaise

[Clay1]

Mark, why do you get a procedural if you retrieve the empty mag but don't rack the slide? This is cut and paste from page 38 of the current rulebook:

"4. Ammunition Carrier Notes:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind."

Rick

Can you point to something in the rulebook that addresses:

I agree if he hasn't taken a shot before retrieving and stowing the empty mag.

The way I read it, if he does a reload and drops a mag at (for lack of a better term) Box A and picks it up before moving to box B there is no penalty. The rule only talks about leaving ammunition behind. Leaving the ammo behind is the penalty. I'm always interested in learning more and would be interested if you can point me to something else in the rulebook that addresses your position. Thanks,

Rick

[Suches]

Suches.

Why don't you read the rule book?

There are only about 50 pages of shooter-relavent material, nice pictures and the print is large.

Make (2) copies and you can leave one in your bathroom.

All SOs are worth everypenny they earn and most are worth much more.

Craig

Bones,

I'm a decently experienced SO myself. These are questions that I frequently get, and/or frequently see inconsistently intepreted. So I thought they'd make an interesting string.

I do have one in my bathroom.

[Joe D]

Most of the pesky rules can be overcome with a proper "tip" to the SO before shooting.

As far as matches go I have mixed emotions. There are the IDPA "purists" that put on low round count matches that are perhaps more slanted toward the intent of IDPA. Then there are those that view IDPA as just a shooting game. Their matches usually have a high round count.

Given a choice I will always choose the high round count. Most shooters I hang with like to shoot. I have never heard any shooter say "Boy did that match suck. I had to shoot too many rounds".

I like movers and swingers. They are much more realistic than stationary targets. I don't think in the real world the BG will just stand there and let you shoot him. I wish I could come up with some props that moved, ducked and dodged.

The MD at South River must be doing something right as the match participation seems to be growing every month. Shooters are our customers. If they don't like your match setup or round count they won't come.

We should never confuse IDPA with training. It is just a shooting game. If you want training seek out a professional.

[Mayonaise]

The way I read it, if he does a reload and drops a mag at (for lack of a better term) Box A and picks it up before moving to box B there is no penalty. The rule only talks about leaving ammunition behind. Leaving the ammo behind is the penalty. I'm always interested in learning more and would be interested if you can point me to something else in the rulebook that addresses your position. Thanks,

Rick

Rick,

Page 41 paragraph 2

Joe,

Nice thread drift into your usual gripes.

I for one care more for quality than quantity.

If you spent half the energy creating your own "game" as you do complaining and working to skirt the IDPA rules your arguments might carry more weight. At least the guys in TX and D.R. Middlebrooks stepped up to the plate to create variants on IDPA.

Mark

Edited April 1, 2006 by Mayonaise