Para P14 /16 For A New Guy Looking For A Ds 1911

[Iron Chef]

First Let me start by say thanks to all here this is a very good forum with lots of info that has already been a help.

Ok so I will try and keep this short. I have used .45 cal the most so far (Glock 21, & both Single & double stack 1911s in .45) this is because a long time family friend who has been instructing me is a long time USPSA shooter & and a die hard .45 1911 limited competitor)

Now as I look to get into this sport more I am about to buy a solid cost effective gun.

My first thought was to get a Glock or an XD and shoot production class however I just don’t like the feel of the Double action ‘safe’ trigger of those guns especially compared to the 1911’s that I have shot of my instructors (granted they are decked out a little

Having said that I would rather go with a 1911 style as I have liked the feel of the 1911's I have used. So perhaps a good option is find a decent Double Stack 1911 (I like the DS also because I have big hands as I am 6’6”)

So this has lead me to the Para P14 .45 (as I am not trying to break the bank hope to keep it under $800 or so)

- So Is the Para P14 .45 a solid way to go (considering the above info)?

- And/Or should I look at the .40sw and the P16 .40 ? If so what are the Advantages (just higher cap mags?)

I really Appreciate the advice & I know that this is kind of an ‘open’ question so please no need to write a page just give me some basic thoughts

Again very glad I have stumbled onto this forum and thanks for all the great info here.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Iron Chef

[3quartertime]

A P16 would be the perfect fit for your described needs. Start looking for high caps and base pads. If you have cash and be fairly patient you will find a really good deal for real close to your price range. You might also keep a watch on some good deals on internal parts. Every part wears in every gun so if you find some replacements at a good bargin you will be ready when necessary, to give it to a smith and have everything you want replaced at good values.

Good luck and welcome to the forum...

[Iron Chef]

So what is the main advantage to the .40SW over the .45? (Just the Higher Cap Mags?)

Also I fogto to mention that I am not reloading right now however I will do that at some point (as I can get empty brass for free - instructor also teaches w/ local PD and they leave all their brass on range as they don't reload)

Edited March 21, 2006 by Iron Chef

[Waltermitty]

So what is the main advantage to the .40SW over the .45? (Just the Higher Cap Mags?)

Also I fogto to mention that I am not reloading right now however I will do that at some point (as I can get empty brass for free - instructor also teaches w/ local PD and they leave all their brass on range as they don't reload)

In Limited division that pretty much sums it up, each bullet is .050" smaller in diameter which translates to more bullets in the magazine (with only length as a restriction).

As far as the design purpose goes, the 40 S&W gets into the same power factor as the 45 ACP in a package that will fit in a smaller gun. That's not much of a consideration if you're looking at the P16 40 because it is a full size gun.

If you're getting into reloading there is a big difference in once-fired brass costs. 45 ACP is getting hard to find cheaply while, as you observe, 40 S&W is either free or nearly free.

Lastly, all the Cool Kids shoot 40, while the not-so-cool kids shoot .45.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Iron Chef,

Welcome to the forum. I'm an infrequent poster but I found myself in your exact position when I first started shooting competitively several years back. I too was using a G21 but really wanted to switch to a 1911. I went with the Para P16 and never looked back.

Got lucky and had a guy at my club who was buying an STI and therefore selling a matched pair of P16s. The guns I bought had already been tricked out (2.5 lbs trigger, tungsten guide rod, pinned grip safety, S&A magwell, upgraded internals, Bomars, etc) and came with a good supply of high cap mags. I ended up buying both guns, 9 high caps, and a ton of parts and accessories, springs, etc for $1700. Probably the best purchase of my life.

I have since sold one of the guns in order to fund an NFA toy but I will never part with the other. I've put well over 40,000 rounds through this pistol and can count the failures on one hand (and all were attributable to me being lazy and not replacing recoil springs or mag springs when needed).

My advice - find a good, used P16 that has already been set up for IPSC (this will save you hundreds of $$) - you can easily get into one for around $900 or less if you keep your eyes open. Get a couple mags outfitted with Grams Basepad Kits (20 rds, 21 if you tinker with the spring) and you're ready to go.

The Para might not be the "sexiest gun" in the world, but it gets the job done. Just ask TJ.

[D_4_Ever]

Hello Iron Chef,

I'm kinda newbie to this site as well. Only wish I'd known about it a few years ago . Anyway, I think the P-16 is the way to go. I have a P-14, which was OK for about a month of club matches...

Ended up having it heavily customized eventually. In fact, I was suprised at how easy it is to make a $900 gun out of $2000 in parts... Here's my experience w. the Para: if you buy a stock P-14 or P-16, it will come w. plastic trigger, mag release button, main spring housing. Also the hammer is big and clunky. Hammer/Sear engagement is often a solid 8lbs or more, (more for duty/safety, than for competition) due in part to the Series 80 style firing-bin blocker/safety.

I believe there's a P-16 'Limited' available, which has some of the components we like for IPSC. It costs a bit more.

The .40 is the way to go for several reasons, in my oppinion. You can use it for Ltd or Ltd-10. The recoil is slightly easier to manage, (I've found) but much depends upon how much time/effort you can put into finding the right combination of bullet components and recoil springs to match. You can find lots of .40 brass just lying around on the range. Granted some of it may be beyond usable life cycle. Whatever you decide on - Enjoy !

[RBH]

I just purchased a P16-40 Ltd for my first competition gun. Got the bug last year, just didnt have the funds to get started. So far so good, the Ltd seems to have better parts, no plastic trigger or mag release that i've read about in some posts.

I have always wanted a .45, but went with the .40 for the reasons already stated-more rounds in each mag, and cheap readily available brass floating around.

I've only got 500 rounds through mine and will not have shot competition till next month so not much more info to offer, learning as I go-this site sure helps a lot!

First post to btw!

[Nebraskan]

There are a couple of P16-40's for sale at www.easternebraskapractialshooters.com for sale section from $500 obo to $750 for stainless Ltd with several mags. A 14/45 also. Not attached to any of these guns myself.

[Blockhead]

Hey Chef,

I'm going through the same thought process. I'm leaning towards buying a P16-40 Ltd. from a fellow shooter (includes trigger job and assorted goodies).

I'm also thinking about a P14-45 LDA from another friend for Production (got to have the DA first shot in Production). There was an interesting thread in the forum a week or so ago about loading down the .45acp to minor power factor (keep in mind that everybody scores minor in production even if they shoot a major caliber ).

Welcome aboard!

[Iron Chef]

Thanks for all the replys

Another question where is a good place to look to find Local Classified or For Sale Listings (in Colorado) ?

Again looking for the single action DS Para Ord. P14 or P 16

Edited March 22, 2006 by Iron Chef

[JFD]

I think you need to forget about .45 unless you're going to shoot it only in L-10.

I love the .45, but pissing away mag capacity was not an option for me. With Para springs, followers and tubes + Dawson extensions I can easily get 20 reloadable rounds in any of my 10 mags. 21 is no problem, but I believe I'd fail to seat mags here and there if I tried to reload to them.

I always start with 21+1, and reload to 20 round mags. I believe most S_I shooters get 19+1, which is the minimum you need to be really competitive. That's what I get with my Limited Glock. The .45 probably wouldn't hurt you too much, but you will find yourself at a definite disadvantage more than you'd like. You'll end up having to reload at some oddball point in the stage when nobody else shooting Limited has to.

With the my P16-40 LTD, I've run into at least 5 stages in the year I've been shooting it where the 22 round capacity gave me a definite advantage over S_I shooters.

Ammo is also cheaper and reloading components are cheaper. My wife is still shooting .45 and it makes me sick to buy brass and bullets compared to my .40s.

[Iron Chef]

I think you need to forget about .45 unless you're going to shoot it only in L-10.

I love the .45, but pissing away mag capacity was not an option for me. With Para springs, followers and tubes + Dawson extensions I can easily get 20 reloadable rounds in any of my 10 mags. 21 is no problem, but I believe I'd fail to seat mags here and there if I tried to reload to them.

I always start with 21+1, and reload to 20 round mags. I believe most S_I shooters get 19+1, which is the minimum you need to be really competitive. That's what I get with my Limited Glock. The .45 probably wouldn't hurt you too much, but you will find yourself at a definite disadvantage more than you'd like. You'll end up having to reload at some oddball point in the stage when nobody else shooting Limited has to.

With the my P16-40 LTD, I've run into at least 5 stages in the year I've been shooting it where the 22 round capacity gave me a definite advantage over S_I shooters.

Ammo is also cheaper and reloading components are cheaper. My wife is still shooting .45 and it makes me sick to buy brass and bullets compared to my .40s.

Well that is really my only Concern with the .45 is the differnace in mag cap.

But as for reloading and ammo costs that is really not as big of a deal as I can get Brass for Free or Near free thanks to my Instructor (who trains a local PD who do not reload therefore we can collect their brass

But one other thing that I have not mentioned that makes still lean to the .45 and that is the feel / kick / recoil. This is because I have a bad wrist and back (among other parts) i have hardware in my wrist and 3 surgeries on my back so the "crack' of the .40 is a little less 'nice' then the 'push' of the .45

Well tomorrow I am going to check out the 2 again and I think that reguradless of anything else I will just have to go based on feel of the 2 (I know novel concept) but I am serious because whiel I appericate the need for lots of round to be competive with the top Starting out I am far from the top so until then have to go with what feels best and Perhaps a .45 in the Limit 10 is the way to go

Thanks for all the help

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Iron Chef,

Can't resist making one more pitch for the .40.

If your goals include ever being truly competitive in limited and winning matches consistently, the .40 is really the only choice. There is a reason that you see almost no limited competitors using .45 - you simply cannot consistently win with it. The couple of extra rounds in capacity that the .40 gives you will always beat the .45.

Your point concerning perceived recoil is interesting (pop of a .40 vs the push of a .45). Do you use factory ammo or reloads? I personally find a .40 with proper handloads much easier to shoot than any .45 with similiar PF loads. I think perceived recoil is a often a function of the type of gun you're shooting and whether you have it set up "heavy" or "light". To me, Glocks have always seems to recoil more dynamically than 1911s (maybe due to their lighter weight or frame composition?) I've always been a fan of "heavy" set up (tungsten guide rod, heavy mag well, etc) because I perceive this setup as having the best recoil attenuation.

All that being said, if you're interested in shooting only L10 then I guess a .45 will be as competitive as any other pistol but . . . if you want the flexibility to competetively shoot either limited or limited 10 - there really is only once choice - the .40.

Best of luck in your search.

[JFD]

I see very little difference in recoil between my major 230 grain .45 loads versus my 180 grain .40 loads.

I can definitely say that there's more difference between 200 grain bullets versus 230 grain bullets in a .45 than there is between .45 and .40 recoil (to me).

I also prefer the "push" of 230 grain bullets in a .45, but have no complaints with the .40. it did take me a little longer to get my Para setup to track as well as my SS .45, but I'm sure anything involving "feel" is going to be different for everyone here.

It shouldn't be a problem at the next match to get someone to let you shoot their .40.

Edited March 22, 2006 by JFD

[Iron Chef]

Well I can appericate all the push for the .40 cal

And I know that the extra rounds do make the differnace

However I still think that I am going to go with the .45 as this is my first comp type gun as I am comfortable with the .45 19111's and like them.

but having said that I am sure that in a year or 2 a .40 cal will be on my list if things go well in the ipsc shooting.

One last thing is that for limit 10 shooting cal is not such a big deal.

[ChuckS]

Chef,

There is one more thing to consider: mag reliability. I started with a P-14. It has been wearing a .40 top end for a long time now. The rounds in a .45 para mag roll with the whole length of the case in contact with the mag body. All that friction tends to make the mags very dirt sensitive. The .40s roll on the indentations on the body and have a lot less surface to trap dirt. I had many malfunctions during matches for really small chunk's o crap. I am happy that I went .40. Don't miss the mag issues at all.

Later,

Chuck

PS: If you have arm/back injuries that are aggravated by shooting, perhaps you may want to look into shooting some nice soft minor loads in production?

Edited March 22, 2006 by ChuckS

[Iron Chef]

Lastly, all the Cool Kids shoot 40, while the not-so-cool kids shoot .45.

I guess I may have to wait to be a cool kid

Too all that Replied I thank you for your 2 cents and input.

One other thing I noticed is that there does not seem to be a P16 anymore only a S16 limited (according to the Para Website) While I appericate that the limted edtions have some decent extras it does effect the price a couple hundred bucks.