Open Or Limited

[glock17w]

I currently shoot Production now but I would like to venture off into another division. I keep going back and forth between Limited and Open. What are the pros and cons of going from Production to Open?

[diehli]

Open.

http://www.maxmichel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=15749&hl=

[Loves2Shoot]

Go where the best competition, it is all shooting.

[Jake Di Vita]

I firmly believe you will improve about 40% faster if you shoot Open.

It's not about where the competition is....there is always competition somewhere, it is about performance.

[Front Man]

The cons are the expense.

The pros are how fast your game will improve in Open just like Jake said.

FM

[diehli]

The cons are the expense.

The pros are how fast your game will improve in Open just like Jake said.

FM

Expense? After the initial investment in the gun ($200 comparing Bedell guns at Shooter's Connection), if you go 9Major, ammo is cheaper 'cause bullets are cheaper.

[vincent]

I just had an Open gun built and the upfront cost of Open isn't much more than Limited if you compare apples to apples. And when you look at the big picture the extra few hundred dollars is a drop in the bucket. Either way go with a top gunsmith because nothing hurts improvement more than having to worry about your equipment.

The reason I went Open this season is that I heard that it helps speed improvement as well. Now I've got the gun so it's time to do my part.

[glock17w]

Thanks for the input. I have been leaning towards Open. I didn't know that Open could improve your skills. I would think that it would be hard to go back and forth from the dot to iron sights. I would get an SJC Open Glock Major running 9mm Major.

It would be easier for reloading. I could reload for 9mm Minor for Production and 9mm Major for Open. I would just have to reload basically one caliber per se.

[Flexmoney]

I would think that it would be hard to go back and forth from the dot to iron sights.

You bring up a very good point.

I've seen plenty of Open shooter pick up their iron sighted guns and give them a whirl. Quite frankly, it seldom goes well for them.

The red dot, on top of things like being quick to pick up, allows the shooter to keep their visual focus out at the target. The proper use of iron sights means that a shooter needs to pull their visual focus back to the front sight as the gun comes on target. It's not an easy thing to do.

When they talk about an Open gun helping you to improve faster, the argument for that is that the (properly setup) Open gun takes care of a lot of things for you, allowing you to focus on other aspects of the game*.

- With 28 or more rounds in the gun, reloads aren't nearly as important. Many stages, you just won't have to do a reload at all. I don't mean just the skill of hitting the reload, either.

With a big stick, there is also less need to figure out the perfect plan of attack in your prestage walk through. If you need a reload, you can hit it at the very best place in the stage. That choice isn't dictated by you running out of ammo.

You also get a cushion of confidence. In other divisions, you might be close to empty more often, and feel a special need to slow down on tuff targets (like distant steel). Extra rounds in the gun make this less of a factor.

And, the weight of all those rounds in the gun can provide a bit of shooting platform stability, as well.

- An Open gun usually does a good job of taking some of the burden of dealing with recoil away from the shooter. Maybe a good analogy is that is allows a shooter to make Major power factor, at the feel of shooting Minor ?

- The red dot optic...has to be about the easiest thing to use as a sighting system. Fast, accurate, very low learning curve, allows a target focus. A true "force multiplier".

It negates the need to have to learn the discipline of a front sight focus.

- An Open gun usually means that you are getting a gun that has been built by a smith. Clearly there is a lot more to go wrong on an Open gun, but you have the advantage of drawing on the experience of the smith...and those that have went before you.

- Ammo. Open means reloading. Which likely means a higher quality of ammo (in many cases). It also means the ammo made is specific to you gun and your goals.

There is likely more, but the point is this...

All that stuff adds up. The Open gun takes care of a lot of the "shooting stuff" for the shooter, allowing them to focus on all the other aspects of our game.

Of course, the flip side of that is true too. The Open gun taking care of making the "shooting" easier also means that the shooter isn't forced to refine the areas that the gun helps them out with. That probably isn't as important in our game as it is in other activities that people use guns for.

* It might be important to note that some shooters might have other goals besides winning the "game".

[AikiDale]

Admit it Flex, you really want an open gun don't you? Just don't want to spend the money? Just can't bring yourself to finance a gun?

I am finding the open gun shows me things you must learn with an iron sighted gun, it just points it out for those of us not smart enough to figure it out with iron sights. Grip for example. Why do my shots often go off to the left shooting an iron sighted gun? Figured it out right now with the red dot; it was pressure from my left hand. I had thought it was anticipating recoil by tightening my right hand and was working at relaxing my right hand. I got the right hand really relaxed. Same problem. Pick up an open gun and Shazam! Why is the dot way over on the left? Relax the left hand and it is dead center.

The dot allows the seeing of problems more readily than irons. You get instant visual feedback when you do the right thing. You get an instant visual correction when something could be made better. It is a great educational tool.

I'm shooting Limited at the Florida Open. I prefer iron sighted pistols. However, the red dot is a great training tool and I'm glad I invested in me.

[ong45]

Flex is right on all points, dont's forget though that what makes an open gun easy to shoot makes it east to shoot for EVERYONE else. It's kinda humbling to see the speed with which the top guys shoot . This might be time for and indians and arrows comment.

It is seldom noticed that many open gun specialists are also pretty good with iron sights. ( Max at L10 nats along with Chris Tilley)

Reloading is huge, one of the differences between a good and a great open shooter. I know i have been guilty of neglecting this skill.

Get an open gun and periodically switch back to your prod. gun to keep yourself honest.

James

[Jake Di Vita]

Reloading is huge like Ong said. I've put many many hours of practice into all those areas that the way the gun is set up helps you out with.

Also one thing to remember. Just because you have a dot, doesn't mean you don't have to aim.

[Crusher]

I think the biggest difference from dots to iron is constant target focus vs. target focus (spotting where you want the lead to go) then shift to front sight focus is what allows the faster improvment. You are able to keep your eyes "out there" and this allows you to become aware of other actions you may miss/overlook during a focal shift occuring with almost every target and transition which can eat up some "awareness" untill that focal shift becomes sub consious.

Seeing and awareness are everything with regard to personal improvement in the game, the dot allows both from the beginning for a shortened learning curve in the end

[Ron Ankeny]

I shot irons for 30 years in various disciplines before coming into IPSC. I then shot irons in IPSC for a couple of years before going to Open. Shot Open for a while then went back to irons. As my vision has deteriorated, I find myself back to Open. While I am no GM like Travis or Jake, I have been around the block a couple of times, so here's my take. Go back and read Flex's post twice, then read it again because he absolutely nailed it stone cold. Then go read Ong45's post twice because he is spot on too.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[ong45]

Here's another side of the open to limited debate.

You will see open shooters struggle with limited but seldom will good limited shooters have a hard time learning open.

James

[Loves2Shoot]

Right on James. I got to be decent shooting open, I got to be better shooting limited. I fought for years against a pretty decent open shooter, it wasn't until I spent a few years with my limited gun that I closed the gap.

It is easier to get decent with open (especially if you are comparing yourself to limited shooters), but harder to get to be great because the bar is so much higher.

You learn the most from the best shooters. If you have a great limited shooter and no great open shooters I would still say shoot limited (sticking a dot on in practice sometimes would help you learn to see more) I've seen a ton of open shooters who can't do a decent draw/reload to save their life. If there are great open shooters, battle them.

You can get away with a lot of bad technique in Open that you can't in Limited, and some people don't catch on to how to shoot Limited fast enough.

I don't think one is better or worse than the other, they are just different in many ways. Shooting them both will teach you different things. With open you have less to deal with visually so you can focus on the other things, so it is easier because their is less to do.

40% easier to get better? That doesn't make sense to me. There is just less to do shooting open, everything else is the same, but I don't think there is 40% less to do, but everyone's experience is different.

Just shoot, and look for something new in each shoot. (and make it fun)

[vincent]

If a person thinks that they can afford to not practice draws, reloads, and accuracy based on what division they are shooting then they have more problems than equipment.

Everyone should have a foundation of good accuracy, draws, and reloads. How often you reload in a stage isn't an excuse to lay off the basics.

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Everyone's a bit different. You have to know what your goals are.

I'm an accomplished IDPA shooter, did OK in Limited, and have lots of experience with iron sights. I think that shooting Open will help me improve more quickly in what I want to do next.

Instead of dealing in generalities I'll put down why I went to Open:

1) The dot provides better visual feedback which I want to leverage to improve my ability to call the shot. A side effect of this is I hope to improve my ability to get out of positions.

2) The higher magazine capacity means fewer reloads and more options on when to reload which allows me to concentrate more on movement including moving in and out of position.

3) Everyone in Open has the same advanced gear which pushes the shooting faster than ever. I want to use this increased tempo to push my comfort zone up a notch.

Only time will tell if this actually happens.

----------

There will always be people who think that Formula 1 race car drivers are slackers because the car does everything for them. These folks know that only street racers are real drivers. You have to decide for yourself.

Edited February 6, 2006 by vincent

[Jake Di Vita]

I didn't say it is 40% easier, I said it is 40% faster.

It isn't easy to get good at anything. It is faster because you no longer have to focus attention on aligning iron sights, the gun itself is easier to shoot letting you focus attention on movement and the other aspects of the game that take up so much time.

[XRe]

You guys are overlooking the right answer to glock17w's question...

Which one?? That's easy. Both!!!

[glock17w]

From the information I have been reading here and in other places, I think I will shoot Open instead of Limited for now. Besides Open looks like it is real fun and I would enjoy the competition that is in the class. I think I have a process of going about this nailed down. I plan to attend a training class from FG or Max and Travis once I get back to the states with my Production gear and shoot the rest of the year with my Production gear. I want to become better shooting with my Production gear first and foremost. All at the same time, I will have my Open gun being built. I will stay with the same platform, Glock. I have had a chance to look at and handle some of S & J Customs Custom Glocks. I will go with them. John Nagel does some great work.

Since I plan to shoot Open, I will start reloading again. I will want to get comfortable with reloading again before I start reloading 9mm Major ammo. I will reload my 9mm Production ammo.

This process sets me up for success I think. I guess my military mind thinks too much. But I have plenty time to come up with my courses of action while I sit here in the Land of the Morning Calm. I will have everything planned and executed before too long though. Now the big picture is figured out. Have to figure out where I will order my reloading supplies from and the different loads I will use. I guess I will be frequenting the reloading data forum soon.

glock17w

[caspian38]

Thanks for the input. I have been leaning towards Open. I didn't know that Open could improve your skills. I would think that it would be hard to go back and forth from the dot to iron sights. I would get an SJC Open Glock Major running 9mm Major.

It would be easier for reloading. I could reload for 9mm Minor for Production and 9mm Major for Open. I would just have to reload basically one caliber per se.

GO LIMITED IF YOUR GOING TO USE A GLOCK! stock is usually the best a Glock will ever be ... trying to make it a competitive open gun is usually a bigger job than just spending the money to get a 1911 style open gun...I do have a friend that wants to make a Glock 19 into an open monster ... short, fast, comp and a JP...maybe?

STOCK is the way for GLOCK!

Si

+1 on open being the faster way to improve ... but not with a Glock!

Although that Glock shooter (I cant spell his name starts with an S and ends in wow !that was fast .) improved pretty fast shooting production.