Questions about variations in performance with 9mm reloads...

[PaleoMan]

50 minutes ago, zzt said:

If the PCC and Walther are happy with the OAL you were using, throat the Hellcat barrel so it takes the same.

Both guns handle the rounds fine (feeding, chambering), but my spread and std. dev. are (I think) high, as you were mentioning maybe it is the setback.

 

I was thinking of using a second die set to make shorter HellCat rounds that chamber better, (concerned about them touching the lands) and longer rounds to see if the PCC and Walther give better performance.

 

 

[zzt]

Seating and crimping in two steps are key if you have a 5-staion or more press.  The Lee FCD does a splendid job of crimping and sizing the neck.

 

As I mentioned, you could have your Hellcat barrel throated.  Inexpensive.  About $20 if your gunsmith already has the reamer.

 

Chasing single digit SDs is touch.  You have a start in using same HS brass.  If your operation of the press is smooth, that is another plus.  Next is seating.  Several bullets and shapes will not seat to a constant OAL.  That makes a difference.  Then there is powder.  You have been told that using CFE for 132 PF loads is not optimal.  If you make a ladder of loads from 132 PF up through 144 PF, you should see a continuing improvement in SDs as the PF goes up.  More pressure equals a better, cleaner, more complete burn.

[PaleoMan]

Yeah, I have Dillon 650, with separate seating and crimping dies.  For std dev. I just want to get it out of the 50+ range.

 

I did take more chrono readings today, this time with the Walther and Hellcat, using my reloads and the Syntech ammo for some baselines.  I'll post my findings later...

 

[PaleoMan]

Ok, so here are some more data points with the current setup...

 

Using my Precision Bullets 125 gr round nose coated reloads (4.66 ave gr CFE Pistol powder, 1.115 OAL), and 124 gr Syntech flat nose coated rounds. Using both Walther Q5 (5") and Hellcat (3"). it was only 25 degree F, when testing:

 

Walther Q5 Reloads      Syntech
Ave Vel.      1012         1111
Max Vel.      1057         1139
Min Vel.       943         1089
Spread.     114.18        40.66
Std Dev.     34.71        12.39
PF.            126          138

Hellcat    Reloads      Syntech
Ave Vel.       931         1034
Max Vel.       949         1044
Min Vel.       870         1022
Spread.      78.75        24.54
Std Dev.     23.45         7.96
PF.            116          128

 

As I found out, with the Walther, there is at least 0.018" of space before the lands.As @zzt mentioned, the bullet is likely jumping. Likewise, the Hellcat is contacting the lands some. As you can see, the Syntech rounds are much more consistent.

 

My thoughts, for now, is to try a dummy round at 1.132" and 1.131" to see where the PCC no longer touches the lands and then develop a ladder of loads and test them in the PCC and Walther Q5, and see how the numbers come out. I'm hoping that with a longer OAL that the spread and std dev will come down.

 

Once the second set of 9mm dies arrive, I'll work on lowering the OAL of the Hellcat, and then see if I can even get a reasonable load with the CFE Pistol powder. I can consider whether I want to throat the barrel on the Hellcat, as an alternative.

 

In parallel, I'll try to find a faster powder (hopefully locally) and try a pound and see how it works out.

 

Any suggestions/comments are most welcome!

 

[Farmer]

When your bullet is touching or into the lands that will raise the peak psi a bit and that’s more than likely why the Hellcat had a lower ES. You want a little clearance to give room for,

A- Crud build up. 
B- To compensate for slight differences in the bullets even though they are the same. 
C- To prevent a little longer one from getting set back into the case and negating all your efforts.
D- Or getting stuck into the lands and not being able to clear the chamber or pulling the bullet out of the case.  Just more stuff to think about. 

Edited February 1 by Farmer
Spell

[HesedTech]

3 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Any suggestions/comments are most welcome!

 

No suggestions, but went through some Chrono data on three guns of mine working up a load. 
 

Using just 5 shots per gun, 147 FN Blues, .355, 3.63 grains of WAC, ZSR primers, OAL 1.12” +- .005,” andall range brass, @ 55F

Stock 2 SD = 10.34 PF 129.18

Tanfo Lim Pro SD = 15.4 PF 131.97

Shadow 2 SD = 6.3 PF 131.45

 

The OAL was determined for the Shadow 2. The Tanfos have reamed barrels and can load longer 1.14” 

Note, WAC is not considered a “fast” powder, probably slightly slower than your CFE.

 

Loaded on a Dillon 750, Hornady seating die with micro adjust, and Lee taper crimp, not the FCD (crimped to minimize dent in bullet).

 

I suspect there’s something in your loading process, like bullets not seated as straight as possible, over crimping, using the Lee FCD, or OAL bad length. 
 

Check 25 yard accuracy. 

 

Edited February 1 by HesedTech

[PaleoMan]

I know the crimp is OK, as precision bullets recommends 0.375-0.377 and I'm within that range. I have all Dillon dies, with separate crimp and seating dies.

 

I'm targeting playing with the OAL first, as it is a low hanging fruit item.

 

How do you like the Hornady seating die? I've always just used dillion (4) die sets. It's tough to adjust the seating depth.

[ysrracer]

Two words, plunk test.

 

Google it, watch YouTube videos.

[PaleoMan]

I've always case gauged my reloads, and have done a plunk test in the barrel on my Walther Q5. When I got my Hellcat, it didn't seat well, so I lowered the OAL, not realizing that the shorter OAL could cause issues with the Q5.  With my new PCC, I'm also seeing consistency problems, and have identified that that, like the Walther, the OAL could be increased. It's kinda hard to plunk test, but I have been dropping a round into the barrel and with pliers, trying to see if the round turns easily or has some resistance.

 

In close examination of the Hellcat dropping into the barrel, I see that the OAL is still a bit too long, as the round is not flush with the back of the barrel, like it is with an empty case.

 

So, right now, I'm trying to find how much longer the OAL can be for the PCC, hopefully finding something that is close for both the Walther and PCC. I'm also, going to see how much shorter the OAL needs to be for the Hellcat.

 

With that determined, I want to make a ladder of loads and see how the consistency is (and accuracy of shots off a rest).

 

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

How do you like the Hornady seating die? I've always just used dillion (4) die sets. It's tough to adjust the seating depth.

The Hornady seating die has a collar like the Redding Precision that helps straighten the bullet as it seats it. The micrometer addition makes it really easy to change depth. It can also crimp, but that does not need to be used and I don't recommend it. I use the Dillon dies for other calibers, just settled on the Hornady for volume with greater accuracy. 

 

The Dillon taper crimp die, in my opinion, makes the smoothest crimp out there. It just happens the load/tool head I was posting about has the Lee taper crimp die on it. 

[HesedTech]

23 minutes ago, PaleoMan said:

So, right now, I'm trying to find how much longer the OAL can be for the PCC, hopefully finding something that is close for both the Walther and PCC. I'm also, going to see how much shorter the OAL needs to be for the Hellcat.

Personally, unless accuracy is an issue (25 yards) developing a load which works in all your guns really is the way to go. Because a PCC has a longer barrel you can use less powder to achieve minor PF. While it really doesn't matter that much with pistol rounds, because of the longer barrel you could use a slower powder. 

[zzt]

I will say again, developing one 132 PF load for all three guns using CFE is going to be impossible.  It is a slow powder.  You are already seeing significant velocity differences between the two pistols.  Wait until you chrono the PCC.  You will have even more velocity.  You will probably not like the recoil even if you have 11 oz. of buffer, weights and spring behind a heavy bolt.

 

You have some N320.  Put the CFE away and try that.  You will come much closer to your goals.  If you cannot find more N320, Sport Pistol or AA2 are excellent substitutes.  You will find your SDs match the Syntech.

 

So, you have two choices.  You can suffer along with your CFE because you have a lot of it.  Or you can use a much more suitable powder.  Tinkering with OAL is not your problem.  Your powder choice is.

[HesedTech]

23 minutes ago, zzt said:

I will say again, developing one 132 PF load for all three guns using CFE is going to be impossible. 

You are correct, each gun will have a different PF for a given load, however the OP may not care if one pistol was 128 PF and the PCC 140 with the same load. If there is an absolute must have 132 PF, then yes, each gun will have a different weight if powder.

 

Now I have only used 1 lb CFE for pistol and really didn't think it was what I wanted to purchase, however it will make 132 PF in his guns. The example I gave using WAC was because I have a bunch of it and decided I would use it up in practice rounds. Normally I like faster powders like SP, 320 (I have a bunch of this) Clean Shot, Win 244... but we use what we have and WAC or CFE will work fine.

 

Truthfully when I'm shooting I have no idea what powder is in use, given the PF is similar.

Edited February 1 by HesedTech

[PaleoMan]

13 minutes ago, zzt said:

I will say again, developing one 132 PF load for all three guns using CFE is going to be impossible.  It is a slow powder.  You are already seeing significant velocity differences between the two pistols.  Wait until you chrono the PCC.  You will have even more velocity.  You will probably not like the recoil even if you have 11 oz. of buffer, weights and spring behind a heavy bolt.

 

You have some N320.  Put the CFE away and try that.  You will come much closer to your goals.  If you cannot find more N320, Sport Pistol or AA2 are excellent substitutes.  You will find your SDs match the Syntech.

 

So, you have two choices.  You can suffer along with your CFE because you have a lot of it.  Or you can use a much more suitable powder.  Tinkering with OAL is not your problem.  Your powder choice is.

I'm not trying to develop a load for all three, but would like to have one load for the PCC and Walter, if possible. I"m hoping that the consistency and accuracy issues I see are more due to the OAL, to see if I can possibly use the CFE pistol.

 

I have chrono'ed the PCC (in post #1). I do NOT have N320. My thought was to try to get a OAL that is longer for the PCC and Walther, try CFE Pistol with it to see how it goes, and in parallel, get a powder that is faster and develop loads with that to compare.

 

Here are the tests of the three guns with the existing OAL and CFE. The two pistol were on a day slightly warmer (32F vs 25F), IIRC.

 

Walther Q5 Reloads
Ave Vel.      1012
Max Vel.      1057
Min Vel.       943
Spread.     114.18
Std Dev.     34.71
PF.            126

Hellcat    Reloads
Ave Vel.       931
Max Vel.       949
Min Vel.       870
Spread.      78.75
Std Dev.     23.45
PF.            116

 

Two samples with reloads
PCC Ave V0 fps   1063     1036
High fps         1113     1093
Low fps           984      968
Spread fps     129.72   124.60
Std dev         39.42    43.23
PF                132      129

[PaleoMan]

1 minute ago, HesedTech said:

You are correct, each gun will have a different PF for a given load, however the OP may not care if one pistol was 128 PF and the PCC 140 with the same load. If there is an absolute must have 132 PF, then yes, each gun will have a different weight if powder.

 

Now I have only used 1 lb CFE for pistol and really didn't think it was what I wanted to purchase, however it will make 132 PF in his guns. The example I gave using WAC was because I have a bunch of it and decided I would use it up in practice rounds. Normally I like faster powders like SP, Clean Shot, Win 244... but we use what we have and WAC or CFE will work fine.

 

Truthfully when I'm shooting I have no idea what powder is in use, given the PF is similar.

Correct does not have to be the same PF. I need to have PF > 125 for the Walther. For the PCC, any PF will do for now, as I'll use it for Steel challenge. Later I'll need > 125, if I do USPSA/IDPA.

 

The Hellcat is just for practicing with, as it is my CCW, and I use commercial loads when carrying.

[HesedTech]

1 minute ago, PaleoMan said:

Std dev         39.42    43.23

I have to admit your STDEV is a bit high. I think you mentioned, you do check to make sure your powder drop is consistent. I Chrono at 10' with old Caldwell and use a Labradar.

[HesedTech]

13 minutes ago, PaleoMan said:

Correct does not have to be the same PF. I need to have PF > 125 for the Walther. For the PCC, any PF will do for now, as I'll use it for Steel challenge. Later I'll need > 125, if I do USPSA/IDPA.

If you haven't noticed the discussion about powders often goes off the hook here on Enos.

 

Personally I've used a lot of Titegroup, Sport Pistol, Win 244, N320, Clean Shot, WST, and tried a bunch of others like CFE. My preferences for 9 minor are Sport Pistol, N320, and Clean Shot, but I will load whatever is available. I have 10 lbs of Win Autocomp (WAC), that is why I'm loading it up and enjoying shooting.

 

By the way it's the same thing with primers, I bought a bunch of ZSRs and they all go bang so far, but I prefer Federal.

Edited February 1 by HesedTech

[PaleoMan]

25 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

I have to admit your STDEV is a bit high. I think you mentioned, you do check to make sure your powder drop is consistent. I Chrono at 10' with old Caldwell and use a Labradar.

Yes numbers are high and accuracy not as good as the Syntech ammo that I just tried (since I was breaking in my PCC, I bought some commercial ammo to use).

 

The drop seems to be pretty consistent.

 

I use a Labradar to chrono.

 

[PaleoMan]

15 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

If you haven't noticed the discussion about powders often goes off the hook here on Enos.

 

Personally I've used a lot of Titegroup, Sport Pistol, Win 244, N320, Clean Shot, WST, and tried a bunch of others like CFE. My preferences for 9 minor are Sport Pistol, N320, and Clean Shot, but I will load whatever is available. I have 10 lbs of Win Autocomp (WAC), that is why I'm loading it up and enjoying shooting.

 

By the way it's the same thing with primers, I bought a bunch of ZSRs and they all go bang so far, but I prefer Federal.

I guess I should expect that. Everyone has their favorites, which is fine - I like to hear what people have found out works best for them, since there are so many powders, I haven't really played with different types.

 

I'm really hoping the inconsistency is due to the OAL, so that I can salvage using up the CFE. If not, I can use the CFE for the Hellcat, and try another powder for the other two guns.

 

Right now, I'm trying an experiment to see if the OAL theory pans out. I'll get a good OAL (I honestly didn't realize about the effect of shortening the OAL would have on my other guns, but it makes sense) for the two guns, and see what happens.

 

I appreciate all the inputs from folks.

[HesedTech]

8 minutes ago, PaleoMan said:

The drop seems to be pretty consistent.

I saw you are loading at 1.11 OAL with you 125s.  Believe Syntech uses a powder similar to Sport Pistol, since you are experimenting with CFE try this. Lower your OAL to 1.08” and using same powder load see if the STDEV improves. You shouldn’t have any pressure issues at minor PF, but always watch for them. 
 

I was experimenting for fun with 115 grain bullets in a 380 and found because of the limited cartridge I had to use a very fast dense powder (244) to get decent velocities.  
 

The joys of reloading. 

Edited February 1 by HesedTech

[PaleoMan]

Today, I identified that with the PCC and Walther, I could go up to 1.132" (from 1.115"). I played with my seating die, and got it to 1.130"-1.131" (it's hard to adjust the dillon die - hence the questions about the Hornady die - something for me to ponder in the future).

 

The CFE pistol range is 4.4 - 5.0 gr for a LCN (I have coated RN). I was at 4.6 before lengthening the case, so I decided to make 20 rounds at 4.6gr, 20 at 4.8 gr, and 20 at 5.0 gr. Next time I can get to the range (I hope this weekend), I'll test these in the Walther and PPC. I'm confident that the rounds will function fine in the Walther at that length, because I've loaded that in the past. I'll see if it works for the PCC.

 

I'll report back my findings, for those curious. I hope this helps the consistency and accuracy of the rounds. In the meantime, I'm going to try to shop for powder locally to see what's available in the stores. I hope I can do that tomorrow. I can then try a ladder with the 1.130-1.131" OAL that I have set right now.

[PaleoMan]

I shopped around locally to see what powders were available, and I have some questions for folks...

 

One powder I found was Ramshot Competition. Very high up on the burn rate chart. However, it seems to be targeted to shotguns. They had no load data for 9mm, from what I could tell. @zzt you had mentioned this as a powder to consider. How do you determine the load?

 

Another I found was Alliant American Select, which states it is targeted for 12-guage clays and secondary targeted to cowboy action handguns. They did have 9mm load data, but only had a single load with a velocity. I guess I was expecting to see a min and max load value. When there is one, like that, do I use that, check the velocity, and they adjust by small amounts to hit desired PF?  How do I tell, if I'm exceeding min load?

 

As expected, there are only limited examples tested. I know Precision Bullet had said to use LRN buillet type, when referencing load data. Is there a way to adjust when the load data has different bullet types? I'm used to CFE, which I can easily find load data for LRN. When I looked at the Alliant American Select, besides not recommending anything for 125gr, they had different types as well:

 

 

Thoughts?

 

I may end up ordering a pound over the internet, and trying something like Tightgroup or Sports Pistol.

 

 

Edited February 3 by PaleoMan

[Farmer]

American Select is close to Sport Pistol in burn rate but it’s a larger flake powder. It does work very well with lighter loads. I haven’t compared it side by side grain for grain with SP but it’s pretty close. Same as e3 and Clays, you can use Clays data for e3 without any problems. I believe zzt can give you better information about Competition, I have some but haven’t messed with it much. 

Edited February 3 by Farmer

[zzt]

American Select data has always been sparse from Alliant. Personally, I wouldn't use it.  I've used in 45ACP.  Never in 9mm.  I prefer Alliant e3, Alliant Sport Pistol and Accurate N0.2 for 130~132 PF 9mm.  N320 is good also.  Competition isn't going to get you there.  However, it will be great for a dedicated SCSA PCC sub-minor load.

 

Here is Competition loading data.  Sorry.  The PDF is too large to post here.  You can get limited data here.  https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/

 

Send an email to zzt@earthlink.net and I'll attach the Accurate Manual.  I'm currently using AA2 because Sport Pistol was so hard to come by.  Frankly, I cannot tell the difference.  AA2 meters like water.

 

Forget Titegroup.  Hot and dirty.  Ordering a pound of anything online will kill you with the Hazmat and shipping.  See if you can find AA2, SP or N320 locally.  Another to try is N330.  That powder was specifically designed for 9mm.

 

Here is the VV manual.  It was small enough to attach.

 

Vihtavuori Reloading Guide - Edition 12.pdf

Edited February 3 by zzt

[PaleoMan]

Thanks for the Vihtavouri guide. I've seen the Hodgdon link, which is what I was looking at to see the load data (and where I didn't find anything for Ramshot Competition for 9mm). I'll PM for the Accurate guide.

 

So far, I've only found Ramshot Competition, Alliant American Select, Hodgdon HP-38, and Hodgdon CFE Pistol, which is what I have.

 

I sounds like a lot of people like Sport Pistol, Titegroup, AA2, and Power Pistol. I'll check some other small local shops to see if they have some powders.

 

I plan to go tomorrow to the range and test the new OAL with a ladder of CFE Pistol (4.6, 4.8, and 5.0 gr).