Do the bump........but how much?

[mofosheee]

7 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

When I get back to my reloading shop, I will have to check out the latest virgin Starline .223 brass I bought.

 

There is actual like documented in an US Army manual instances of Lake City brass being thin on one side of the body.  Upon firing the round, the case develops a curve to it like a banana.  And that shows up as bullet runout or concentricity issues.

 

I have  a picture or screen shot from the manual on my phone, somewhere.

 

In my case, I think it might be a toolhead alignment problem with this 20 year old 650.  I haven’t bought the Dillon alignment tool yet.

 

I am going to try reloading some .223 on my newer, 5 year old 650.  And see if that helps with the concentricity issues.  If I am still having runout issues, then I will revert back to my single stage and check for concentricity again.

 

But for what we are doing with .223 in AR gas guns, I am thinking that variances in case neck or case mouth thickness aren’t going to make that big of a difference at the distances we normally shoot.

I have the Dillon alignment tool if you want to borrow it............

Edited January 11 by mofosheee

[mofosheee]

13 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

The problem….that I think….there is with traditional decapping rod/pin and expander ball asemblies is that pulling that neck over the expander ball can:

 

A.  Stretch the case

 

B.  Pull the neck or case mouth off center leading to concentricity issues.

 

In theory….

 

Which is one of the reasons I went with just the neck bushing in a Redding S die.

 

(There are some regular traditional full length sizing dies where you can get a carbide expander ball replacement that would help with the stretching of the neck and reduce the possibility of pulling it off center.  Otherwise, you should be getting enough lube inside the case necks.  And properly tumbling that lube off.)

 

Conversely, you could use a universal decapper to knock just the old primer out.

 

Then take the decapping rod assembly out of a traditional full length sizing die.

 

Then use something like the Lyman M die to open the case mouth/case neck up just enough.

 

Somebody on another forum clued me in about Single Pass Rifle Reloading (SPaRR) and moving the Dillon PM to the #3 or #4 station in the 650’s toolhead.

 

Me? Personally?

 

I am trying to avoid:

 

1.  Trimming brass or at least going through the motions of inserting brass into a trimmer.

.............................

 

Did you buy the Hornady case comparator tool yet?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I now have the Hornady case comparator.  

The Redding type "S" bushing die arrived in the mail last night.  Need bushings. 

Regarding the topic of "expander manderals" and stretching of the neck.   What's wrong with running a case through the Type S bushing neck die followed by an expander manderal to final size the case opening?  (see attachment)  I believe that the Lyman M die mentioned above is similar my disassembled expander die (attachment)

 

 

Edited January 11 by mofosheee

[Chills1994]

3 hours ago, mofosheee said:

I have the Dillon alignment tool if you want to borrow it............

Thanks man!

 

I might be heading back, again, to my local reloading store today.  So I will ask them if they have any of the alignment tools.

 

 

[mofosheee]

pm me for my address if you need it

[Chills1994]

3 hours ago, mofosheee said:

Yes, I now have the Hornady case comparator.  

The Redding type "S" bushing die arrived in the mail last night.  Need bushings. 

Regarding the topic of "expander manderals" and stretching of the neck.   What's wrong with running a case through the Type S bushing neck die followed by an expander manderal to final size the case opening?  (see attachment)  I believe that the Lyman M die mentioned above is similar my disassembled expander die (attachment)

 

 

 

Oh!

 

DANG!

 

DUDE!

 

Sorry, I didn’t mean for you to go out and buy the Redding S die.

 

What I do or how I do things with Single Pass Rifle Reloading is….ummm….err… [i]different[/i].
 

I mean if that is the route you want to go.

 

What I do is definitely UNconventional or UNorthodox.

 

With a retrograded Dillon Powder Measure at station #4, and a bullet seating die at station #5, I am not really able to see the powder level in the case before seating the bullet.

 

So I do the bowling ball polishing method with a rubbing alcohol dampened terry cloth towel to get the lube off my loaded rounds.

 

Then I weigh each round on a digital scale.  That’s how I QA/QC my rounds to make sure they are not short of about 20 to 25 grains of powder.

 

Then I case gauge every round.

 

Does it take longer to weigh every round versus using a Dillon RT1500 equipped case prep toolhead, tumbling the case lube off, and then running that batch of brass through the press a second time through a load toolhead?

 

I don’t know.

 

Anywhoooo….moving on now….

 

Yeah, you can certainly use whatever mandrel type die like a Lyman M die to open the case mouths or case necks back up.

 

BBBBBbbbbbuuuutttt….in my mind, that is just working the brass too much.  Like taking a wire coat hanger and bending it back and forth, it finally gets work hardened enough that it breaks in two.

 

The advantage with the Lyman M die is that it does have a slight step “up” on it, that if you screw the mandrel down far enough, it does put a very slight flair on the case.  That comes in handy any time you are using NON-boattail’ed bullets.  It makes it easier/more convenient to get the flat base bullets started in the case as it is about to go up into the seating die.  For the guys who have bullet feeders, I hear/read that the little flair also helps keep the bullet on the case mouth as the shellplate moves or rotates to the seating die station.

If you get the correct sized neck bushing in the first place, you [i]shouldn’t[/i] have to open the mouth back up with a mandrel die or a Lyman M die.

 

As a side note….

 

I think that…

 

The guys who are into Benchrest type competitions or F class type competitions will say that without neck turning, what you do with a neck bushing is push all the neck thickness irregularities to the inside …. To where it actually grips the bullet and tries to provide the correct amount of neck tension.

 

These same Benchrest or F class competitors might then also say that without neck turning, all a mandrel die does is push the case neck thickness variances to the outside.

 

I think…in short, that without any neck turning these anal retentive competitors would say that your neck tension will be all over the place.

 

These same guys might have say 10 pieces of brass that they bring to the match.  They reload that same brass between strings of fire or at lunch.  And if my memory is correct, since the brass is going right back into the same chamber it was shot in, all they do is neck size.  They do NOT full length size.  Or at least that used to be the norm 10 to 15 years ago.

Another side note…a reminder…

 

For the case prep toolhead process on my 650, I put a Swage It tool in at Station #2 where the primer punch would normally go.  That gets rid of the primer crimps.

 

Single Pass Rifle Reloading only works on once fired commercial civilian brass or TWICE fired Lake City brass That primer crimp has to be gone.  And you have to be pretty sure that whole batch of cases is 1.760” or shorter.

 

Edited January 11 by Chills1994

[Boomstick303]

4 hours ago, mofosheee said:

The Redding type "S" bushing die arrived in the mail last night.  Need bushings. 

 

I started to go down this path and realized I was over complicating the reloading of 223/556.  I returned that die and did not go down that road.  

 

You can Neck size, but it is completely unnecessary.  You can also incorrectly size your brass neck if you do not know what you are doing. 

 

Once again I turn to Erik Cortina for this information.

 

 

 

[mofosheee]

Worry not.  I was trending towards that die anyway.  I'm just getting into reloading rifle. Much different than pistol.  As I descended into this rabbit hole unwise purchases were expected.        

Volumes more positive press on the Type S die than the Redding micrometer competition neck bushing sizing die that I currently have.  I found that neck bushiing sizing die to be way overkill.  But I do like the micrometer seating die that came in the kit.  

 

In the spirit of safety, I consider brass a consumable.   Aware of work hardening and I have an annealer.    With my current experience level and at this time I prefer to hand deprime for inspection purposes.  Yes, I have the RCBS deswager. 

 

You state you have your pet method/technique.  Mine is not very far off of yours. 

With a long history in machining I'm extremely OCD about details to a detriment.  Just wanna be safe.  Thanks again!

p.s. I'm not liking my Dillon powder dispensor

 

[mofosheee]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I started to go down this path and realized I was over complicating the reloading of 223/556.  I returned that die and did not go down that road.  

 

You can Neck size, but it is completely unnecessary.  You can also incorrectly size your brass neck if you do not know what you are doing. 

 

Once again I turn to Erik Cortina for this information.

 

That thought has crossed my mind. 

I'm right off 25 and county line road if you are ever in the hood. 

Thanks again Broom!

 

 

Edited January 11 by mofosheee

[mofosheee]

Yes, I am seeing those variences in thickness as described.   One more reason to sideline the competition neck seating die.  Thanks!

[Farmer]

12 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

When I get back to my reloading shop, I will have to check out the latest virgin Starline .223 brass I bought.

 

There is actual like documented in an US Army manual instances of Lake City brass being thin on one side of the body.  Upon firing the round, the case develops a curve to it like a banana.  And that shows up as bullet runout or concentricity issues.

 

I have  a picture or screen shot from the manual on my phone, somewhere.

 

In my case, I think it might be a toolhead alignment problem with this 20 year old 650.  I haven’t bought the Dillon alignment tool yet.

 

I am going to try reloading some .223 on my newer, 5 year old 650.  And see if that helps with the concentricity issues.  If I am still having runout issues, then I will revert back to my single stage and check for concentricity again.

 

But for what we are doing with .223 in AR gas guns, I am thinking that variances in case neck or case mouth thickness aren’t going to make that big of a difference at the distances we normally shoot.

Where I really noticed it was while re-forming Rem 444 brass for my 338JDJ. It’s a simple one step process but after a couple of reloads some of the rounds wouldn’t chamber easily. So of course this led to the purchase of more tools to find out that the necks were around .005 +- thicker on one side. Already had a neck turning tool so that took care of that but was surprised at how much some of them varied. Like you said with 223 it doesn’t matter as much but a real lopsided one could be a problem in a tight chamber. 

[Boomstick303]

48 minutes ago, mofosheee said:

Worry not.  I was trending towards that die anyway.  I'm just getting into reloading rifle. Much different than pistol.  As I descended into this rabbit hole unwise purchases were expected.

 

Not worried in the least.  Just sharing a similar experience.  Everyone figures out their own process in due time.   

 

Good luck on your reloading venture.  

 

[mofosheee]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Not worried in the least.  Just sharing a similar experience.  Everyone figures out their own process in due time.   

 

Good luck on your reloading venture.  

 

And thank you for sharing that. 

I set up the Redding Type S die, measured some of my spent brass and a handful of random range brass using the Hornady comparator.  The shoulder of my spent brass measured 1.463" ish while some of the range brass measured longer.  Ran this brass through the Redding Type S sizing die and bumped the shoulders back receiving a consistent 1.460".   AOK so far. 

Moving on to the range brass. Readings between 1.450" and 1.459" were obtained.   

My understanding is that the resizing die is for pushing a shoulder measuring too long in the negitive direction.  The die doesn't add to shoulder length.  How to deal with this brass please.  Thanks again

[Chills1994]

If or when I get my RCBS X sizer die put back together, then I can put the X die in at station #1 (with its mandrel screwed down some). H Put the Dillon PM back in at station #2 (still use the tension springs AND the failsafe rod).  Leave the #3 slot empty.  I like to position a mechanic’s inspection mirror just right above that #3 hole.  I also hang a flashlight off the left side of the PM.  Then with my Mark 1 eyeball I can see the powder in the case as it comes up through the toolhead.

 

Station #4 is the Redding micrometer adjustable seating die.  And if the bullets have cannelures, a Lee Factory crimp die goes in at station #5,

Edited January 11 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

26 minutes ago, mofosheee said:

And thank you for sharing that. 

I set up the Redding Type S die, measured some of my spent brass and a handful of random range brass using the Hornady comparator.  The shoulder of my spent brass measured 1.463" ish while some of the range brass measured longer.  Ran this brass through the Redding Type S sizing die and bumped the shoulders back receiving a consistent 1.460".   AOK so far. 

Moving on to the range brass. Readings between 1.450" and 1.459" were obtained.   

My understanding is that the resizing die is for pushing a shoulder measuring too long in the negitive direction.  The die doesn't add to shoulder length.  How to deal with this brass please.  Thanks again

I would drop that resized miscellaneous range brass into a case gauge.

 

Back when I first started reloading .308 Winchester for an M1A in the mid 1990’s, I bumped the shoulders too far down, and there was a little bit of a ridge at the shoulder that made the rounds difficult to chamber.

 

The Dillon case gauge has a step milled into the headstamp end.

 

If the resized brass’s head stamps sat below that lower step, you done squished the cases down too far and you would have excessive headspace.  If the head stamp sits proud of the whole Dillon case gauge, you didn’t resize the case down enough. (Or there a speck of grime or a media granule/kernel stuck inside the case gauge)

 

Flush or slightly below flush, but not below that milled step,  that’s perfect.  That is the Goldilocks setting.

[Farmer]

2 hours ago, mofosheee said:

And thank you for sharing that. 

I set up the Redding Type S die, measured some of my spent brass and a handful of random range brass using the Hornady comparator.  The shoulder of my spent brass measured 1.463" ish while some of the range brass measured longer.  Ran this brass through the Redding Type S sizing die and bumped the shoulders back receiving a consistent 1.460".   AOK so far. 

Moving on to the range brass. Readings between 1.450" and 1.459" were obtained.   

My understanding is that the resizing die is for pushing a shoulder measuring too long in the negitive direction.  The die doesn't add to shoulder length.  How to deal with this brass please.  Thanks again

If you are using a FL sizing die it Will indeed lengthen or move the shoulder forward as it starts sizing the body and before it meets the shoulder. Depending on the chamber it was fired in it can be slight or quite a bit. If you have some range brass just measure one, size it in your die but don’t contact the shoulder then re-measure. I’ll bet you’ll find that it has grown if it was fired in a large chamber. That brass has to go somewhere and you being familiar with machining you know how much stuff moves around. 

[ltdmstr]

14 hours ago, mofosheee said:

What's wrong with running a case through the Type S bushing neck die followed by an expander manderal to final size the case opening?

 

Nothing at all.  That's a far better approach than using a button sizer.  For .223/5.56 I use two separate toolheads to load on a 550.

 

toolhead 1

- decap

- full bushing die (size case, bump shoulder, size neck)

- mandrel die (expend neck to final i.d.)

- trim (if necessary)

 

deburr

tumble to remove shavings and case lube

 

toolhead 2

- decap

- charge

- seat

- crimp

[mofosheee]

Thanks for backing me up on using the expander manderal

[mofosheee]

12 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

I would drop that resized miscellaneous range brass into a case gauge.

 

Back when I first started reloading .308 Winchester for an M1A in the mid 1990’s, I bumped the shoulders too far down, and there was a little bit of a ridge at the shoulder that made the rounds difficult to chamber.

 

The Dillon case gauge has a step milled into the headstamp end.

 

If the resized brass’s head stamps sat below that lower step, you done squished the cases down too far and you would have excessive headspace.  If the head stamp sits proud of the whole Dillon case gauge, you didn’t resize the case down enough. (Or there a speck of grime or a media granule/kernel stuck inside the case gauge)

 

Flush or slightly below flush, but not below that milled step,  that’s perfect.  That is the Goldilocks setting.

The resized cases gauged flush

[mofosheee]

11 hours ago, Farmer said:

If you are using a FL sizing die it Will indeed lengthen or move the shoulder forward as it starts sizing the body and before it meets the shoulder. Depending on the chamber it was fired in it can be slight or quite a bit. If you have some range brass just measure one, size it in your die but don’t contact the shoulder then re-measure. I’ll bet you’ll find that it has grown if it was fired in a large chamber. That brass has to go somewhere and you being familiar with machining you know how much stuff moves around. 

Farmer..........I'm seeing the elongations in the cases that you said I should expect after resizing.  For example, one case measured 1.754 before resizing and 1.760 after.  This growth is where the shoulder is moved forward.

My original thoughts about the forces and flow of brass within the sizing die was was wrong.  Thanks!

 

 

 

[Chills1994]

On 1/12/2024 at 6:08 AM, mofosheee said:

Thanks for backing me up on using the expander manderal

There are many ways to skin a cat.

 

Whichever way you choose to trim, you can always use the mandrel die after trimming to knock the remaining burrs off the inside of the neck.

 

Some guys will put whatever mandrel die or a Lyman die in at station 1 of their load toolhead.