Do the bump........but how much?

[mofosheee]

Hello BE forum

I'm new to reloading rifle and struggeling with dies and resizing.   My equipment is a Dillon 650 and a single stage Redding.  The bullets will be 5.56 for a gas gun.  I'll be using range brass, inspected and separated by maker.  

I have; dies, case gauges, micrometers and verier calipers...everything (I think) and I'm trying to ask the right question.   Understanding that brass undergoes deformations during firing and that resizing is necessary.

 

Shoulder area defined as between 1.438" and 1.557"  (per attachment)    If I were to take a dozen or more spent cases from various manufactures and run them through a full length resizing die, those cases would now all be close to identical with the same dimesions and profiles to include the shoulders?      Would a loaded round that fails to seat properly in a case gauge (too deep or not enough) be the indicator of an out of tolerance shoulder?

 

[RJH]

Many times not seating deep enough is because the shoulder is not set back far enough. It could be the bullets out too long and hitting the lands as well.

 

Simplest thing to do here is adjust your dies so the ammo fits your gun and not worry about a case gauge too much.

 

One other thing to consider is some dies do not size the case close enough to the rim and if it expands a lot the case will not fit all the way into your gun. But, it's usually the shoulder not set back too far enough

 

Hopefully that makes sense

 

 

[Boomstick303]

When reloading rifle cartridges' that have shoulders that shoulder bump will be the most important part of sizing.  Erik Cortina has made a YouTube video that helped me out a lot to get this correct.  

 

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, mofosheee said:

Would a loaded round that fails to seat properly in a case gauge (too deep or not enough) be the indicator of an out of tolerance shoulder?

Maybe is the answer.

 

Rifle sizing is a bit more particular than pistol. 

 

After cleaning and sizing your unloaded brass should case gauge for both length and head space.

 

If after reloading that same brass fails to case gauge then something in your process has deformed the brass. It could be too much pressure on the neck from the powder funnel, crimp die set wrong (if you crimp) or even the bullet seating die not feeding the bullet properly into the neck.

 

For the AR platform the OAL will most likely not be driven by the chamber and the depth of the throat. The magazine is normally the limit for OAL.

 

I would recommend for your AR getting a small base sizing die. This helps immensely and don't forget trim for length after sizing. 

 

Remember to check loads for over pressure signs if you are loading at or near max. Unlike Pistols, individual  rifle chambers will affect pressures.

 

Have fun. Reloading is a great hobby by itself.

[Farmer]

I don’t know what sizing die you are using but if it uses a pull through neck expander that can cause problems if the inside of the neck isn’t lubed. If it pulls out hard it can slightly pull the shoulder forward and mess the whole works up. Just something to watch out for. 

[Chills1994]

15 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

When reloading rifle cartridges' that have shoulders that shoulder bump will be the most important part of sizing.  Erik Cortina has made a YouTube video that helped me out a lot to get this correct.  

 

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

I use the Hornady comparator tool/widget clamped onto a set of digital calipers.

 

Same kind of concept.

 

Take a piece (or 3 pieces) of brass that you know has been fired through your gun, stick it in the comparator tool, close the caliper’s jaws, then zero it out.

 

Set up your sizing die in whatever press you are using.  Screw it down until it makes contact with the shellholder.   Secure the lock ring. Lube a case,  run that first piece of brass )that you zeroed the calipers with) up into the sizing. Stick that case back into the comparator tool and measure it again.

 

It should read something like “-0.002 “ or a “-0.003”.  
 

I like the RCBS lock rings.  They have 6 flats on them just like a hex headed bolt or a hex nut.  Since the lock rings are black, I use a silver sharpie to put a witness mark on the lock ring, the die, and the press.

 

Eric Cortina already did the math. Fourteen threads to the inch…or 1/14th should be 0.0714….or just call it 71 thousandths.

 

Loosen the set screw on the lock ring….still keeping the die in the press.

 

6 flats or 6 points….0.0714 divided by 6 equals 0.0119”. So basically 12 thousandths.

Moving that witness mark on the die to about the same spot on the adjacent flat should….in theory… move the die up or down 12 thousandths.  In theory.

 

So, it takes very little movement or rotation of the die at all to get a 2 thousandths or 3 thousandths on the shoulder bumping back.

 

Having that witness mark or tick mark on the die, the lock ring, and the press gives you a good visual indication of how much you moved the die.

 

I always case gauge all of my rifle rounds, too.

 

 

[Chills1994]

5 hours ago, Farmer said:

I don’t know what sizing die you are using but if it uses a pull through neck expander that can cause problems if the inside of the neck isn’t lubed. If it pulls out hard it can slightly pull the shoulder forward and mess the whole works up. Just something to watch out for. 

I am going to muddy the waters here.

 

What you said up above is one of the reasons why I made the switch to a Redding type resizing die with a neck bushing.  The Redding S type die will also full length resize and do that shoulder bump thing.

 

If your .223 brass is shorter than 1.760”, then you do not need to trim.

 

You can get by with a Redding S type resizing die with just a neck bushing (no decapping rod assembly) at station #2 in a Dillon 650/750 .  You put a universal decapping die at station #1.

 

Then you can reload your .223 brass with just one pass through a 650 or 750.

 

You put the Dillon powder measure in station #3 or #4 (use the tension springs to get the powder bar to return) Your bullet seating die can go in at station #5.

 

If you can be reasonably sure your brass is under 1.760” AND there are no primer crimps.

[Farmer]

40 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

I am going to muddy the waters here.

 

What you said up above is one of the reasons why I made the switch to a Redding type resizing die with a neck bushing.  The Redding S type die will also full length resize and do that shoulder bump thing.

 

If your .223 brass is shorter than 1.760”, then you do not need to trim.

 

You can get by with a Redding S type resizing die with just a neck bushing (no decapping rod assembly) at station #2 in a Dillon 650/750 .  You put a universal decapping die at station #1.

 

Then you can reload your .223 brass with just one pass through a 650 or 750.

 

You put the Dillon powder measure in station #3 or #4 (use the tension springs to get the powder bar to return) Your bullet seating die can go in at station #5.

 

If you can be reasonably sure your brass is under 1.760” AND there are no primer crimps.

Me too, they give a lot more control. I also had a problem with a TC bbl that had a fairly normal length but large diameter chamber. When the die was set for the proper length, the base diam wasn’t sized enough. When the base was sized enough, headspace was excessive and brass only lasted 3 reloading’s. Getting it in the sweet spot was a challenge to say the least. Made a tomato stake out of that barrel. 

[mofosheee]

3 hours ago, Farmer said:

The Redding S type die will also full length resize and do that shoulder bump thing.

 

Having done a lot of pistol, I understand magazine limitations and seating depths mentioned above.  I have an OCD thing going on and get wrapped around the axle over details like the "shoulder bump thing".  Don't wanna make "tomato stakes".  My current set up is very similar to Chills

 

Please allow me to rephrase my original question.  Would I be safe to assume that about any .223 re-sizing die properly set up will bring my cases and case shoulder geometry/angles/dimensions back or close to SAAMI specs? 

 

As stated in the above responses,  if chambering/ejecting problems occur, focus on seating depth and shoulder set-back, inspect brass after firing. 

 

Excellent details provided in the above responses. Thank you! 

 

[mofosheee]

21 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

When reloading rifle cartridges' that have shoulders that shoulder bump will be the most important part of sizing.  Erik Cortina has made a YouTube video that helped me out a lot to get this correct.  

 

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Hello Broom.............I bet your're you a Ben Lomond member?   thanks for the vid

[Boomstick303]

24 minutes ago, mofosheee said:

Please allow me to rephrase my original question.  Would I be safe to assume that about any .223 re-sizing die properly set up will bring my cases and case shoulder geometry/angles/dimensions back or close to SAAMI specs? 

 

Yes as long as the die is set up properly.  Something to take into consideration is not all barrels will have the exact same chamber dimensions.  Let us assume one does not set up a sizing die exactly correct.  The rounds might chamber in certain barrels that have "looser" chambers than others.  It does not mean that same round would work in a barrel with a chamber that is tighter to spec.  I have numerous AR with a few different flavors of barrels.  My main gamer rifle has a Stretch Precision 16" barrel.  From my understanding those were designed with a bit "looser" chamber and will almost any ammo within reason.  It does not mean a round that will chamber in that rifle will chamber in every barrel if the set up of the die set up was slightly off.  

 

To make a long story short, when you reload rifle rounds make sure they work for every rifle you intend to use them for.  

 

9 minutes ago, mofosheee said:

I bet your're you a Ben Lomond member

 

Yes sir, I belong to the HPPS board that puts on the USPSA matches out there and I Match Direct the Big Ben 2 Gun matches out there.  I will occasionally help the TAC rifle dudes put on their match.

 

 

[mofosheee]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Yes as long as the die is set up properly.  Something to take into consideration is not all barrels will have the exact same chamber dimensions.  Let us assume one does not set up a sizing die exactly correct.  The rounds might chamber in certain barrels that have "looser" chambers than others.  It does not mean that same round would work in a barrel with a chamber that is tighter to spec.  I have numerous AR with a few different flavors of barrels.  My main gamer rifle has a Stretch Precision 16" barrel.  From my understanding those were designed with a bit "looser" chamber and will almost any ammo within reason.  It does not mean a round that will chamber in that rifle will chamber in every barrel if the set up of the die set up was slightly off.  

 

To make a long story short, when you reload rifle rounds make sure they work for every rifle you intend to use them for.  

 

 

Yes sir, I belong to the HPPS board that puts on the USPSA matches out there and I Match Direct the Big Ben 2 Gun matches out there.  I will occasionally help the TAC rifle dudes put on their match.

 

 

Pleased to meet you.  I'm in Monument

Jerry

[mofosheee]

Just now, mofosheee said:

Pleased to meet you.  I'm in Monument

Jerry

and a member

[Farmer]

6 hours ago, mofosheee said:

 

Having done a lot of pistol, I understand magazine limitations and seating depths mentioned above.  I have an OCD thing going on and get wrapped around the axle over details like the "shoulder bump thing".  Don't wanna make "tomato stakes".  My current set up is very similar to Chills

 

Please allow me to rephrase my original question.  Would I be safe to assume that about any .223 re-sizing die properly set up will bring my cases and case shoulder geometry/angles/dimensions back or close to SAAMI specs? 

 

As stated in the above responses,  if chambering/ejecting problems occur, focus on seating depth and shoulder set-back, inspect brass after firing. 

 

Excellent details provided in the above responses. Thank you! 

 

This picture is technically not correct. Headspace is the measurement from where the shoulder meets the chamber to the case head. The “Space” is actually the .000-.003” from the case head to the bolt face.  And yes if you size them back to “new brass spec” you’ll be good. I have tried to fit brass closely to the chamber in automatic’s and it just doesn’t work well. Better off just FL sizing, that way every one chambers and works. I actually had some once fired range brass that I had to run through a small base die first because my regular die wouldn’t size them enough to fit my chamber. 
I don’t know where in my postings that quote came from that I said the S die also FL sized. You can get them either way, neck or full length. Just a bit confused on where that came from. 

Edited January 4 by Farmer
Added

[mofosheee]

21 hours ago, Farmer said:

I don’t know where in my postings that quote came from that I said the S die also FL sized. You can get them either way, neck or full length. Just a bit confused on where that came from. 

It's all great information.  All responses are much appreciated. 

From the advice given on the forum and my feelings that the redding competition micrometer neck sizing die are somewhat unnecessary,  I'm looking to purchase a Redding Type S or a similar Lee resizing die.  I have a quantity of 77 gr Hornady projectiles.  I'm not attempting to push any reloading envelopes.  It's my understanding that case / powder volume limitations may occur.  Would it be recommended to use the Ackley dies?

Thank you!

[Farmer]

2 hours ago, mofosheee said:

It's all great information.  All responses are much appreciated. 

From the advice given on the forum and my feelings that the redding competition micrometer neck sizing die are somewhat unnecessary,  I'm looking to purchase a Redding Type S or a similar Lee resizing die.  I have a quantity of 77 gr Hornady projectiles.  I'm not attempting to push any reloading envelopes.  It's my understanding that case / powder volume limitations may occur.  Would it be recommended to use the Ackley dies?

Thank you!

Only if you have an Ackley chamber. 

[mofosheee]

And that was a stupid question.............

[mofosheee]

Just curious,

Is there a method of employing the "tape technique" as Erik Cortina demonstrates but, on a gas gun?

At the 10 minute mark;     https://youtu.be/htvk1UYOXm8

 

 

[Farmer]

With a spring loaded ejector in the bolt it would be extremely difficult to do. It would have to be removed first. No insult intended but I think you are really really really overthinking this. I once chased this around for a long time and it caused more problems than good results so I just fully size them to function and go shooting. 

[Boomstick303]

23 minutes ago, mofosheee said:

Is there a method of employing the "tape technique" as Erik Cortina demonstrates but, on a gas gun?

At the 10 minute mark;  

 

No, these are gas guns.  There is not that level a tight tolerances to warrant that method.  What I do is take a manufactured round I know works well in all of my guns and I base my measurements off that.  I use a Fortster Full length sizing die.  When it sizes it drags an expander ball through the neck for consistent neck sizing.  I chose that die after quite a bit of research.  I am sure others do as good of job, but I went the Forster dies for my 223 reloading.  

 

I am sure as you research you will run into videos yammering on about how important perfect neck sizing is.  It really is not and there is another Erik Cortina video out there that discusses that.  I originally purchased a neck sizing die with a few bushing to play around with it, but I am glad I did not go down that road.  I just returned that die and never used it.  

 

Like @Farmermentioned, don't over think this.  Gas guns are not really designed for PRS style shooting, (although they can shoot that well if set up correctly).  Gas guns and the ammo designed for them have reliability in mind more so than perfect specifications for ammo.  

 

At the start only load a dozen or so rounds.  Make sure they chamber in all of the rifles you intend to use that ammo in, and then go the range to see if you have accuracy.  Find a good base load for the powder and bullet you are using and load ammo using the ladder method.   For instance, I loaded Accurate 2200 using Hornady 55 gr FMJ-BT bullets and loaded ammo from 22.1 to 22.5 gr.  There was a noticeable difference regarding MOA at 22.1 and 22.5 from 22.3 which seem to have the best accuracy.  Keep in mind this is gamer ammo that is a bit slower than most manufactured ammo.

I did find this load gets me out to 400 yds very reliably.  

 

Take your time and decent notes so you can get consistent results once you find an effective load.

 

 

 

 

 

[mofosheee]

15 hours ago, Farmer said:

With a spring loaded ejector in the bolt it would be extremely difficult to do. It would have to be removed first. No insult intended but I think you are really really really overthinking this.

No offense taken and I appreciate the reminder.   I was an OCD machinist and get wrapped up on details and specs. 

[mofosheee]

15 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

No, these are gas guns.  There is not that level a tight tolerances to warrant that method.  What I do is take a manufactured round I know works well in all of my guns and I base my measurements off that.  I use a Fortster Full length sizing die.  When it sizes it drags an expander ball through the neck for consistent neck sizing.  I chose that die after quite a bit of research.  I am sure others do as good of job, but I went the Forster dies for my 223 reloading.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your valuable input and prespective.    I'll keep it simpler!

Jerry

Edited January 8 by mofosheee

[Chills1994]

The problem….that I think….there is with traditional decapping rod/pin and expander ball asemblies is that pulling that neck over the expander ball can:

 

A.  Stretch the case

 

B.  Pull the neck or case mouth off center leading to concentricity issues.

 

In theory….

 

Which is one of the reasons I went with just the neck bushing in a Redding S die.

 

(There are some regular traditional full length sizing dies where you can get a carbide expander ball replacement that would help with the stretching of the neck and reduce the possibility of pulling it off center.  Otherwise, you should be getting enough lube inside the case necks.  And properly tumbling that lube off.)

 

Conversely, you could use a universal decapper to knock just the old primer out.

 

Then take the decapping rod assembly out of a traditional full length sizing die.

 

Then use something like the Lyman M die to open the case mouth/case neck up just enough.

 

Somebody on another forum clued me in about Single Pass Rifle Reloading (SPaRR) and moving the Dillon PM to the #3 or #4 station in the 650’s toolhead.

 

Me? Personally?

 

I am trying to avoid:

 

1.  Trimming brass or at least going through the motions of inserting brass into a trimmer.

 

2.  All this on the press, off the press, tumbling the lube off, back on the press rigamarole.

 

If I had a huge batch of once fired LC19 or LC16 brass, then yeah, I would go through the trouble of running it all through the toolhead with the RT1500 mounted.  
 

anywhooo….just to illustrate that there are several different ways to skin a cat.

 

But on topic…

 

Did you buy the Hornady case comparator tool yet?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Farmer]

To add to @Chills1994post I have found some new brass that is thicker/thinner on one side. There’s really nothing you can do about that but just load it up. Usually it’s only a thou or two but it’ll get worse over several loadings and sizings.  Something that’s there and don’t worry about until it gets bad enough to not chamber. I’ve never tried the Lee collet sizing die but some seem to like it. 

[Chills1994]

3 hours ago, Farmer said:

To add to @Chills1994post I have found some new brass that is thicker/thinner on one side. There’s really nothing you can do about that but just load it up. Usually it’s only a thou or two but it’ll get worse over several loadings and sizings.  Something that’s there and don’t worry about until it gets bad enough to not chamber. I’ve never tried the Lee collet sizing die but some seem to like it. 

When I get back to my reloading shop, I will have to check out the latest virgin Starline .223 brass I bought.

 

There is actual like documented in an US Army manual instances of Lake City brass being thin on one side of the body.  Upon firing the round, the case develops a curve to it like a banana.  And that shows up as bullet runout or concentricity issues.

 

I have  a picture or screen shot from the manual on my phone, somewhere.

 

In my case, I think it might be a toolhead alignment problem with this 20 year old 650.  I haven’t bought the Dillon alignment tool yet.

 

I am going to try reloading some .223 on my newer, 5 year old 650.  And see if that helps with the concentricity issues.  If I am still having runout issues, then I will revert back to my single stage and check for concentricity again.

 

But for what we are doing with .223 in AR gas guns, I am thinking that variances in case neck or case mouth thickness aren’t going to make that big of a difference at the distances we normally shoot.