Rival S Magazine catch letting go

[Samven]

First post so let me say Hello before I start asking for advise. I have had my Rival S for 6 mos now and have about 1500 rnd through it. It has functions flawlessly up until 3 days ago. Suddenly I started having a problem where the magazine would slip out of its locked position after 3 shots. The slide would either override the next round or partially catch the top one and jam it into the feed ramp. I would reseat it and run the slide to chamber the next rnd and in 2 or 3 rnds it would happen again. I initially thought I was bumping the mag release so I changed my grip to stay well clear and it still happened, then I had another Canik shooter fire mine and he replicated my issue exactly. I brought it home and cleaned everything even removing the mag catch to clean behind it and inspect for damage, I removed the extension so it sits flat in the frame and other than a bit of shiny metal on the edge of the catch were it catches the mag everything looked normal but its still lets the mag come loose under recoil. I have extended baseplates on my mags and I tried to wiggle the mags out and they dont budge. I am going to try putting the plastic base pads back on to see if reducing the weight helps but that seems unlikely as the problem happens with a fully loaded mag or just 5 rounds so weight does not seem to be the issue. Has anyone heard of an issue with the mag catch wearing to a point that it cant hold the magazine under recoil.

Thanks.

[partyboy424]

Sounds like the over insertion issue.  When you over insert the magazine it releases the mag catch (mine actually jams the whole mag into the top of the frame and I have to rip it out by hand), but I could see if it's in that position and with the right recoil that the mag would get pushed down and then right past the mag release before it has a chance to re engage.  Right now two 2.5mm o-rings are doing the trick with my basepads.  Shot a zero malfunction match on saturday.  Also ordered a Henning pad to test it out even though I'm shooting production and it's not legal for that. 

[Samven]

I was not having an issue with over insertion but decided to try the oring fix as a quick experiment. I just got back from the range after installing the oring on the magazine the problem stopped. I dont understand it but it worked. I have an email in to canik to see if I can get the new mag release. I will let you know how that works out.

[partyboy424]

1 hour ago, Samven said:

I was not having an issue with over insertion but decided to try the oring fix as a quick experiment. I just got back from the range after installing the oring on the magazine the problem stopped. I dont understand it but it worked. I have an email in to canik to see if I can get the new mag release. I will let you know how that works out.

Yeah, so my theory is that during recoil, your slide went all the way back, the magazine jerked up past the magazine catch and then as the slide started to whip forward, and the recoil switched directions, the magazine then rocks down right past the mag catch and out the bottom.   And your Oring test appears to support that.  Also,  I'm sure 1500 trouble free rounds,  could probably just replace the mag catch spring and resolve it as well.  I've never personally had the mag release issue,  I started day 1 with Orings knowing that this was probably going to be an issue.

[Chrisexv6]

I believe Disruptive Defense makes an aftermarket mag catch.  IIRC the stock mag catch is MIM, the DD one is stainless with tighter tolerances (maybe it helps fix/fixes the over-insertion issue?)

 

The right-hand version is OOS currently, though.

[partyboy424]

3 hours ago, Chrisexv6 said:

I believe Disruptive Defense makes an aftermarket mag catch.  IIRC the stock mag catch is MIM, the DD one is stainless with tighter tolerances (maybe it helps fix/fixes the over-insertion issue?)

 

The right-hand version is OOS currently, though.

I signed up to get notified when back in stock.  Looking at their facebook it looks like they do parts in big batches (like trying to get a Keltec)

[partyboy424]

So, I reached out to Disruptive Defense about the Mag insertion issue.  They haven't had a chance to extensively test for it on the Rival S as they actually have theirs out of commission.  But they managed to find a blemished mag catch out back in appearance only, still functionally correct and are going to get it out to me this week.   Never heard of them until today, but at least so far; absolutely stellar customer service.

Edited August 12, 2023 by partyboy424

[Chrisexv6]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:10 PM, partyboy424 said:

So, I reached out to Disruptive Defense about the Mag insertion issue.  They haven't had a chance to extensively test for it on the Rival S as they actually have theirs out of commission.  But they managed to find a blemished mag catch out back in appearance only, still functionally correct and are going to get it out to me this week.   Never heard of them until today, but at least so far; absolutely stellar customer service.

 

Excellent!

 

Post back your results once you are able.

 

I know "yardsale" mentioned he noticed his mag catch was worn.  He was one of the first to use the o-ring mod to help resolve the over-insertion issue.  But then noticed even that didnt work anymore, and saw the worn mag catch.  Sent the whole gun to Canik AFAIK and they still haven't gotten it back to him.

 

Im kinda thinking the o-rings are stopping the over-insertion but "pulling" the mag down enough that it puts tension on the mag catch, wearing it prematurely (its an mim part, after all)

 

On the Canik subred, someone said they had luck with filing the top of the notch in the mag itself, so it engages the mag catch "earlier" during insertion...meaning it wont be so close to the slide during use so it might still clear.

 

I dont know if these 18 round mags are unique to the Rival-S or not, but it would be interesting to see if it really is just a mag issue.  I also thought I read Canik took over production of their own mags, which could lend credence to that theory.

[partyboy424]

23 hours ago, Chrisexv6 said:

 

Excellent!

 

Post back your results once you are able.

 

I know "yardsale" mentioned he noticed his mag catch was worn.  He was one of the first to use the o-ring mod to help resolve the over-insertion issue.  But then noticed even that didnt work anymore, and saw the worn mag catch.  Sent the whole gun to Canik AFAIK and they still haven't gotten it back to him.

 

Im kinda thinking the o-rings are stopping the over-insertion but "pulling" the mag down enough that it puts tension on the mag catch, wearing it prematurely (its an mim part, after all)

 

On the Canik subred, someone said they had luck with filing the top of the notch in the mag itself, so it engages the mag catch "earlier" during insertion...meaning it wont be so close to the slide during use so it might still clear.

 

I dont know if these 18 round mags are unique to the Rival-S or not, but it would be interesting to see if it really is just a mag issue.  I also thought I read Canik took over production of their own mags, which could lend credence to that theory.

There’s no difference between any of the mags. I bought every sku they have, Mec Gar, Canik, years old from my old TP9.  They’re all the same in every dimension across 20 mags. 

[Chrisexv6]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:39 PM, partyboy424 said:

There’s no difference between any of the mags. I bought every sku they have, Mec Gar, Canik, years old from my old TP9.  They’re all the same in every dimension across 20 mags. 

 

Even the notch location?

 

Then its most likely the location of the mag catch, which means a frame issue (ugh).  I know the steel ones were hard to come by for a while and are starting to show up again...wonder if they actually made change(s).

[partyboy424]

2 hours ago, Chrisexv6 said:

 

Even the notch location?

 

Then its most likely the location of the mag catch, which means a frame issue (ugh).  I know the steel ones were hard to come by for a while and are starting to show up again...wonder if they actually made change(s).

Im not too worried about it. I’ve already seen posts of Canik sending back guns with upgraded baseplates. Henning’s pad works and it would be nuts if they and TF didn’t have +0 pads in the works for production.  Without the constant over insertion, I wouldn’t be surprised if all the reports of beat up mag catches would never have occurred. 

[Chrisexv6]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:39 PM, partyboy424 said:

Im not too worried about it. I’ve already seen posts of Canik sending back guns with upgraded baseplates. Henning’s pad works and it would be nuts if they and TF didn’t have +0 pads in the works for production.  Without the constant over insertion, I wouldn’t be surprised if all the reports of beat up mag catches would never have occurred. 

Got it.  Foe someone like me that doesn't compete (at least not yet) the baseplate thing is just fine.

 

At least a few people have complained that the base plate isn't what should be stopping the mag from over-inserting and that Canik should "really fix" the issue, but not sure how valid that a complaint that is.

[Racinready300ex]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:49 AM, Chrisexv6 said:

At least a few people have complained that the base plate isn't what should be stopping the mag from over-inserting and that Canik should "really fix" the issue,

 

Tell them not to buy 1911's or 2011's, or they'll join the over insertion gang and maybe the broken ejector gang. 

[Chrisexv6]

44 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Tell them not to buy 1911's or 2011's, or they'll join the over insertion gang and maybe the broken ejector gang. 

 

For sure.

 

Its interesting the dynamic between Reddit, Discord and here. 

 

On here, things like over-insertion, "short" chambers, etc. are an every day thing for multiple guns and plenty of fixes exist.

 

On there, its the end of the world and the manufacturer should be put out of business.

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Chrisexv6 said:

 

For sure.

 

Its interesting the dynamic between Reddit, Discord and here. 

 

On here, things like over-insertion, "short" chambers, etc. are an every day thing for multiple guns and plenty of fixes exist.

 

On there, its the end of the world and the manufacturer should be put out of business.

 

I get what you mean, I see it a lot too and the short chambers is a good one. Plenty of people freak out over that. You'll ship the gun back, the factory will test it with the ammo that likely works with the short chamber and send it back to you. Then after waiting a month or more the gun does the same thing and the hair catches back on fire and off to the internet to complain. Mean while I'll have the barrel reamed and back to me in a week for $60 or so. Or I'll just load my ammo shorter. Should I have to spend that money? Maybe not, but I'll shoot $3k in ammo out of the gun a year so the $60 to make a $600 canik run better isn't a big deal. (many here shoot way more than I do)

 

I think here we probably shoot more and many of us have been at this a while. We're used to guns coming out that don't perform up to our expectations and a lot of us don't think twice about making them work. Overall my plastic Rival has been super easy and cheap to get running the way I want. I don't know that I'll ever bother getting a steel one.

 

The biggest thing for me is the time waisted waiting on the manufacturer to do warranty work. Months without the gun means months with out training. And their fix might not do what I want anyway. 

[partyboy424]

22 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I get what you mean, I see it a lot too and the short chambers is a good one. Plenty of people freak out over that. You'll ship the gun back, the factory will test it with the ammo that likely works with the short chamber and send it back to you. Then after waiting a month or more the gun does the same thing and the hair catches back on fire and off to the internet to complain. Mean while I'll have the barrel reamed and back to me in a week for $60 or so. Or I'll just load my ammo shorter. Should I have to spend that money? Maybe not, but I'll shoot $3k in ammo out of the gun a year so the $60 to make a $600 canik run better isn't a big deal. (many here shoot way more than I do)

 

I think here we probably shoot more and many of us have been at this a while. We're used to guns coming out that don't perform up to our expectations and a lot of us don't think twice about making them work. Overall my plastic Rival has been super easy and cheap to get running the way I want. I don't know that I'll ever bother getting a steel one.

 

The biggest thing for me is the time waisted waiting on the manufacturer to do warranty work. Months without the gun means months with out training. And their fix might not do what I want anyway. 

Exactly,  name a manufacturer and I've had a gun from them that wasn't 100 percent reliable.  Even something like the M&P.  I had ten of them in different calibers in lengths that were all 100 percent.  Until the 4" 10mm came out.  And it along with much of the internet reporting, was hot garbage.  But of course I didn't send it back,  I got out my file and fixed the extractor, a couple months later Apex made a better one for like 40 bucks.  That's it,  I had basically zero downtime with that gun.  It might still be out for warranty work to this day if I sent it back.

[TheChef1]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:10 PM, partyboy424 said:

So, I reached out to Disruptive Defense about the Mag insertion issue.  They haven't had a chance to extensively test for it on the Rival S as they actually have theirs out of commission.  But they managed to find a blemished mag catch out back in appearance only, still functionally correct and are going to get it out to me this week.   Never heard of them until today, but at least so far; absolutely stellar customer service.

Keep in mind the only difference between the left and right handed version is the orientation of the logo. It will still function the same. 

[partyboy424]

1 hour ago, TheChef1 said:

Keep in mind the only difference between the left and right handed version is the orientation of the logo. It will still function the same. 

I’ve run it in two matches now.  Works great, not sure if better… the tool they sent I broke immediately, which isn’t an issue, they make that clear that it’s single use. But I figured I’d still be swapping them back and forth testing stuff once I figured out the spring.  I don’t think there’s a “trick”. That mag catch spring is a nightmare.  I’ve been talking to them and they are planning a multiple use all metal tool which I’ll be buying. Also trying to convince them to make a catch with more material on it to prevent over insertion. 

[TheChef1]

1 hour ago, partyboy424 said:

I’ve run it in two matches now.  Works great, not sure if better… the tool they sent I broke immediately, which isn’t an issue, they make that clear that it’s single use. But I figured I’d still be swapping them back and forth testing stuff once I figured out the spring.  I don’t think there’s a “trick”. That mag catch spring is a nightmare.  I’ve been talking to them and they are planning a multiple use all metal tool which I’ll be buying. Also trying to convince them to make a catch with more material on it to prevent over insertion. 

Yeah I have several parts from them including a mag catch. I mostly bought it for the tool. I think I got 1-2 uses out of it before it broke. I talked to Brandon months ago about making one that last longer. Seems like he finally working on a metal version. 
 

as a lefty that’s owned I think 10 caniks now I have to change them pretty often. There’s two ways I’ve found that work pretty well. One way I use a triangle file to file a very slight notch in the Chanel the spring rides in. This helps keep the spring where it should be. I use a couple punches and can get it done pretty quickly.
 

The other method I’ve been using lately is to compress the spring in the vice (don’t go to much or the spring will lose its “memory” and won’t go back out) then wrap it in dental floss so it stays compressed. Then you can slide it mostly back in cut the floss and push it in the rest of the way. The floss is probably the best way but I’ve done it so many times the other way I’m pretty good at it and get it done relatively quickly. 
 

I will say it’s a TERRIBLE design. There’s so many better options they could have went with. 

[partyboy424]

16 hours ago, TheChef1 said:

Yeah I have several parts from them including a mag catch. I mostly bought it for the tool. I think I got 1-2 uses out of it before it broke. I talked to Brandon months ago about making one that last longer. Seems like he finally working on a metal version. 
 

as a lefty that’s owned I think 10 caniks now I have to change them pretty often. There’s two ways I’ve found that work pretty well. One way I use a triangle file to file a very slight notch in the Chanel the spring rides in. This helps keep the spring where it should be. I use a couple punches and can get it done pretty quickly.
 

The other method I’ve been using lately is to compress the spring in the vice (don’t go to much or the spring will lose its “memory” and won’t go back out) then wrap it in dental floss so it stays compressed. Then you can slide it mostly back in cut the floss and push it in the rest of the way. The floss is probably the best way but I’ve done it so many times the other way I’m pretty good at it and get it done relatively quickly. 
 

I will say it’s a TERRIBLE design. There’s so many better options they could have went with. 

Lol, you're like me with M&Ps, and things like this anger me so much.  If you know anything about the M&P mag release installation... it's just so freaking simple.  And I did see you post that about the floss earlier and forgot about it.  That's a good idea.  I'm still going to wait until I get another Rival or that metal tool comes out,  but will try it.

[Samven]

Well its been a long time since I had any news on this topic. I came home Friday and found a Fedex package at my door and it contained a new magazine catch from Canik. Only 3 months but I did get it. I installed it that very night and took the Rival S to the range on Sat. Put 150 rnd through it and no problem, the magazine stayed put. Repeated Sunday and same thing, NO issues. I wont be able to shoot again until Wed. but I plan on trying the Extended mags with full loads -1 (21 rnds). It may take a while till I trust it enough to enter another competition with it but so far everything is looking good. I am on the waiting list with Disruptive Defense for one of their Stainless catches but its looking like that will be a much longer wait than Canik. The first one lasted 2k rounds but the  fully loaded extended mags need a slap to get them to seat so I have decided to reduce the load to 21 to try and ease the pressure on the catch. The original catch was visibly rounded and burred on the catch edge. I love this gun when it works like it should and the mag problem has been its only flaw. I can even forgive the catch problem if the part was available. I would just treat it as a wear part and replace it every 1500 rnds if I could get it.   

[Signal7]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:52 AM, TheChef1 said:

Yeah I have several parts from them including a mag catch. I mostly bought it for the tool. I think I got 1-2 uses out of it before it broke. I talked to Brandon months ago about making one that last longer. Seems like he finally working on a metal version. 
 

as a lefty that’s owned I think 10 caniks now I have to change them pretty often. There’s two ways I’ve found that work pretty well. One way I use a triangle file to file a very slight notch in the Chanel the spring rides in. This helps keep the spring where it should be. I use a couple punches and can get it done pretty quickly.
 

The other method I’ve been using lately is to compress the spring in the vice (don’t go to much or the spring will lose its “memory” and won’t go back out) then wrap it in dental floss so it stays compressed. Then you can slide it mostly back in cut the floss and push it in the rest of the way. The floss is probably the best way but I’ve done it so many times the other way I’m pretty good at it and get it done relatively quickly. 
 

I will say it’s a TERRIBLE design. There’s so many better options they could have went with. 

 

Terrible design would be understatement...  I've been swapping parts (including the slide release button) from my Rival-S > a polymer Rival.  It took me over an hour to get the pin back in on a polymer frame Rival this weekend, and that was following the online uTube vids.

 

When I tried the same method on the steel frame, it just flat wouldn't work.  The steel doesn't have the "grip" that the polymer material has and it wasn't working.  I read your dental floss idea and had it done in less than 10 minutes and that's having to wrap the floss twice, as I didn't get the pin compressed quite enough on the 1st wrap and had to redo it.

 

I didn't have to cut the floss, just unwound it once the pin was set in to the slide release holes.  Good2go!!  THANK YOU for posting this!!

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Signal7

[EvilNuff]

Having to use dental floss as a work around makes terrible design a not strong enough term IMO.

[Signal7]

On 11/21/2023 at 12:41 PM, EvilNuff said:

Having to use dental floss as a work around makes terrible design a not strong enough term IMO.

 

My gums are happy, so look on the bright side... !  

[TheChef1]

On 11/20/2023 at 12:28 AM, Signal7 said:

 

Terrible design would be understatement...  I've been swapping parts (including the slide release button) from my Rival-S > a polymer Rival.  It took me over an hour to get the pin back in on a polymer frame Rival this weekend, and that was following the online uTube vids.

 

When I tried the same method on the steel frame, it just flat wouldn't work.  The steel doesn't have the "grip" that the polymer material has and it wasn't working.  I read your dental floss idea and had it done in less than 10 minutes and that's having to wrap the floss twice, as I didn't get the pin compressed quite enough on the 1st wrap and had to redo it.

 

I didn't have to cut the floss, just unwound it once the pin was set in to the slide release holes.  Good2go!!  THANK YOU for posting this!!

 

 

Yeah the steel on steel is way too slick. Took me multiple days the first time. I had to file a notch to get it to hold. The floss is the only good way. Glad the post helped.