625 fresh from Performance Center locked up within 50 rounds

[bigdog02]

Hey guys, 

Hoping you guys can give me some guidance on something that just happened.
625 with a low round county just got back from some warranty work (barrel cant) and a Master Action Revolver Package from the S&W Performance center.

Took it to the range with a variety of ammo to just try stuff out and function test it.

I made it about 50 rounds and something weird happened - I pulled the trigger on a loaded moonclip and the trigger moved but hammer did not.

Popped out the moonclip and worked the action and it did it again - trigger goes to the rear and there is a click in the action but hammer does not move.  
Pop the cylinder open and closed and try it again and it works fine - double action trigger pull hammer moves all is well.

Dry fire a couple times and then it locks up solid.

Trigger will not move - cylinder release and cylinder will not move - hammer will not move.  Locked up tight.

Checked to make sure it was not the cylinder face smashed up against the barrel - nope it was fine and clear.
No moonclip or snap caps in the gun so lots of space at the rear.

 

I pack up and come home and take it apart, assuming it was a strain screw or something and nope it was tight and all the way in.

Pop the side plate off and nothing is out of place other than the side plate being really really tight and that hammer block being all willy nilly when I pop the plate off.  NOTHING is out of place inside, no chunks of anything, no broken firing pin.

Put it all back together and it works fine.

 

I want to use this in competition and it is not having a good start lol.  What the heck did I do to it? 

 

Edit to add:  Everything is using stock springs - nothing aftermarket at all unless S&W did something at the factory.  The mainspring in the gun now is not a ribbed wolff - it is a normal flat main spring.
Factory trigger, hammer, everything.

Edited January 24, 2023 by bigdog02
More info added

[AzShooter]

Sounds to me like the springs aren't balanced properly.  Try adjusting your strain screw and find where it will work 100% of the time.  

[gargoil66]

17 minutes ago, bigdog02 said:

Hey guys, 

Hoping you guys can give me some guidance on something that just happened.
625 with a low round county just got back from some warranty work (barrel cant) and a Master Action Revolver Package from the S&W Performance center.

Took it to the range with a variety of ammo to just try stuff out and function test it.

I made it about 50 rounds and something weird happened - I pulled the trigger on a loaded moonclip and the trigger moved but hammer did not.

Popped out the moonclip and worked the action and it did it again - trigger goes to the rear and there is a click in the action but hammer does not move.  
Pop the cylinder open and closed and try it again and it works fine - double action trigger pull hammer moves all is well.

Dry fire a couple times and then it locks up solid.

Trigger will not move - cylinder release and cylinder will not move - hammer will not move.  Locked up tight.

 

I pack up and come home and take it apart, assuming it was a strain screw or something and nope it was tight and all the way in.

Pop the side plate off and nothing is out of place other than the side plate being really really tight and that hammer block being all willy nilly when I pop the plate off.  NOTHING is out of place inside, no chunks of anything, no broken firing pin.

Put it all back together and it works fine.

 

I want to use this in competition and it is not having a good start lol.  What the heck did I do to it? 

 

Edit to add:  Everything is using stock springs - nothing aftermarket at all unless S&W did something at the factory.  The mainspring in the gun now is not a ribbed wolff - it is a normal flat main spring.
Factory trigger, hammer, everything.

BD2:

 

The strain screw was "all the way in"?   You mean it was screwed in as much as possible?

 

GG

[bigdog02]

Just now, gargoil66 said:

BD2:

 

The strain screw was "all the way in"?   You mean it was screwed in as much as possible?

 

GG

Correct - it was in the same position as it was when I got it back from S&W.  I checked it with my screwdriver and it was tight.

[625]

I would dry fire it till it locks up.  You need to watch the cylinder release and movement. Then hammer movement. You could also have the cylinder open and watch the hand movement.  I would also open it up and take everything out and have a detailed look at parts and the pins.  Looking if they are rubbing. You could give TK a call , but it is hard to troubleshoot over the phone. 

[gargoil66]

2 minutes ago, bigdog02 said:

Correct - it was in the same position as it was when I got it back from S&W.  I checked it with my screwdriver and it was tight.

BD:

 

You can always call Smith and Wesson and argue with them until they give you a return label.  If that was their Master Action Revolver Package and it is doing what you describe, something tells me returning it again will not result in anything approaching a tuned revolver that is ready for competitive shooting.

 

I am sure Warren will give some advice but if it means sending it out again, send it to TK Custom in Illinois.  They know what they are doing.  

 

GG

 

 

[bigdog02]

S&W had it since Nov 11 and I just got it back this past Monday, so I am not jumping to try to get another return label, freak the lady out at the FedEX place and go through all that again.  I agree - sending it back I am not sure I will get any satisfaction from them.

 

I should preface my "competition" statement I shoot IDPA and am really enjoying the REV division.  I do not and will not be reloading anytime within the near future at all, so I need something 100% reliable with all factory ammo I put in it.
S&W revolver package did a nice job, the trigger feels nice at 8.5 to 9lbs and feels smooth. Compared to the gorilla 12+ lbs plus gritty as hell I sent to them, I was pleased.

 

Dryfiring like a madman right now.  Cannot get it to replicate it at all.  Only oddity and I am not sure this is even an oddity but if I release the trigger super slow there are 2 clicks - 1 in the middle of the release and the other at the end.  If I stop the trigger after the first click and pull it - the cylinder will rotate but hammer does not move.  If I let it out to the last click it works as normal.

Maybe this is normal - I am a Ruger guy, so using S&W is a different animal for me.

Edited January 25, 2023 by bigdog02

[AzShooter]

I'm saying lighten the strain screw a quarter of a turn until you get reliable hammer follow.  The springs aren't ballanced out at full tension.  Give it a try, what can you loose?

 

[Toolguy]

The 2 clicks on the trigger return are normal. When the trigger doesn't return all the way forward, it doesn't pick up the DA sear on the hammer, then can't cycle the hammer.

[Bosshoss]

Pulling trigger and hammer not moving is the sear not resetting all the way. Sear needs shortened(careful here as it can get too short and cause a bump in the handoff of the DA stroke)  or just the reset clearance increased at the bottom front edge of sear. Start with the reset clearance.

 

[AzShooter]

This proves my motto.  Obviously I know nothing but I try.

 

[bigdog02]

Welp something is super f*#ky.  Dry firing for a while now and the trigger pull has crept up higher and higher and is now somewhere between Gorilla and Conan.

Strain screw changes nothing.

Pop the side plate, put back together - back down to a chill 8.5-9.

Dry fire again for several hundred rounds and back up to gorilla level trigger pull.

 

I think it may be time to have a S&W smith other than S&W take a look at it.

 

[gargoil66]

49 minutes ago, bigdog02 said:

Welp something is super f*#ky.  Dry firing for a while now and the trigger pull has crept up higher and higher and is now somewhere between Gorilla and Conan.

Strain screw changes nothing.

Pop the side plate, put back together - back down to a chill 8.5-9.

Dry fire again for several hundred rounds and back up to gorilla level trigger pull.

 

I think it may be time to have a S&W smith other than S&W take a look at it.

 

BD2:

 

If you do send it to a place like TK, tell them you will be shooting factory loads.  It will make a difference in terms of their options and how they will go about getting your blaster back into working order.

 

GG

[Toolguy]

Do you have lubrication in the lockworks and on the yoke tube where the cylinder turns?

[bigdog02]

17 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

Do you have lubrication in the lockworks and on the yoke tube where the cylinder turns?

 

Yup, light coating on everything.
Tomorrow before I totally put up the white flag, I am going to pull everything out of the frame and see if there is something bent or horribly obvious bent/misaligned.
Put some more oil on the moving items and put it back together and see.

[gargoil66]

10 hours ago, bigdog02 said:

 

Yup, light coating on everything.
Tomorrow before I totally put up the white flag, I am going to pull everything out of the frame and see if there is something bent or horribly obvious bent/misaligned.
Put some more oil on the moving items and put it back together and see.

BD2:

 

Good luck!  I spent hours over about a dozen iterations of removal of side plate and inspection of moving parts to include detailed disassembly to figure out what was wrong with my 627.  Gives new meaning to the term 'untrained eye'.  

 

Advice if you want to retain your sanity is not to try and figure out how all the things work in unison with the hope you can deduce the problem.  You will see one thing and think you have it, only to see another a second later, then another and another.  Unless something jumps out at you with certainty, you will enter the revolver "Twilight Zone" and months will go by without fixing the problem and getting the sort of revolver you want for your purposes.

 

TK diagnosed the problem with mine in under a minute.   Probably spent thirty minutes replacing parts and fitting them. 

 

GG

[bigdog02]

Torn apart.  Attached are pics.  
Let me know if anyone wants to see pics of anything in particular.
Going to clean, oil/grease anything that needs it - it was actually pretty dry inside to be honest.  
If it goes back together and has issues, I will be calling and sending to TK.
My eye is extremely untrained but I do not see anything super obvious wrong. 
The rebound slide is not polished much at all, but where it rides in the frame has been.  The contact points on the trigger and sear look polished and feel smooth - no burrs.

Edited January 25, 2023 by bigdog02

[pskys2]

Check the hammer stud, there should be no movement.  From your pix it looks strange, could just be carbon where it sits in the frame but cracks will look like that too.

If it is don't send it to s&w toolguy or other revolver Smith's are doing them now.

[bigdog02]

3 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Check the hammer stud, there should be no movement.  From your pix it looks strange, could just be carbon where it sits in the frame but cracks will look like that too.

If it is don't send it to s&w toolguy or other revolver Smith's are doing them now.

 

Good call.  I checked all the studs in the frame - all are solid, no movement.  No cracks anywhere that I can see thankfully.  

[625]

Have you checked the key safety lock on the gun?  If it was dragging it would produce most of what you are having.  

[bigdog02]

15 minutes ago, 625 said:

Have you checked the key safety lock on the gun?  If it was dragging it would produce most of what you are having.  

Great idea - I honestly never even thought of the lock as something that could cause my issues.

So when I disassembled the gun, I was having problems with the spring/pin at the end of the bolt moving piece, so I sat there working it back and forth a bunch.  As I did, the lock piece that moves would go up and down a little bit.
Now with everything out of the gun and wiped down, if I put the bolt slide back in and move it around, the lock piece does not move at all.
Not sure if any of that makes a difference though.  I will clean the channel out and clean the bolt slide up well.

I am going to oil/grease and put it all back together after work tonight - hopefully the S&W experts have had a chance to see the post by then if they see anything dramatically off.  

 

[Toolguy]

There is a spring that holds the storage lock down, right at the bottom of the flag. Make sure it's hooked in the slot in the frame just above the top of the cylinder bolt. You need the cylinder bolt out to see what's going on. If the spring isn't retained in the slot, the flag may pop up or flop around during recoil.

 

Those are great pix, better than we usually get. In pic 7, it looks like the flag spring is visible along the bottom. That could possibly be part of the frame, though.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Toolguy

[pskys2]

I took the safety lock out of all my revolvers.

[bigdog02]

Great input guys - you all have given me great stuff check.  Nothing obvious out of place sadly.  
The safety flag looks like it is good to go, it has spring pressure pushing it back down if I push it up.

[bigdog02]

Put back together.  Arkansas stoned the rebound slide a little bit, cleaned out the frame, greased/oiled everything, went back together much easier.

 

I am not an expert by any means, but I think Warren may have been on to something with the lube question.  There was 1 tiny small spot of grease in the frame under the rebound slide only and it was really dry all the way around.  I have to wonder if after 50 live rounds it was just lagging so bad with metal on metal that it was causing the issues.
 

Checked trigger pull when I put it back together and it is solid 8.5-9.5 (all factory springs and internals).  Dry fired 500ish times and trigger pull is still in that range.  Dry fire if I am really on the trigger fast I can still get it to rotate the cylinder but not bring the hammer back (by not letting the trigger out all the way and pulling it after the first click when releasing the trigger). 

I will live fire a bunch of different ammo this weekend and will report back to this thread if I have issues.  I will be dry firing it a fair bit in practice until then too.
Much appreciated for the info so far guys.  

When it is not in pieces: