HesedTech Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 hours ago, HOGRIDER said: it can have a positive or negative affect on shell plate flex. The best swage hold down die is made by FW arms and has fixed the issue of having different head stamp base thickness. https://fwarms.com/shop/reloading/hold-downs/fw-arms-auto-case-centering-dshd/ Best purchase I made for my 1050. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptimiStick Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 Yeah. MA makes one also. I use the FW arms one in my Mark7, but am going to try the MA one in my 1100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIGcurious Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, HOGRIDER said: In addition to the benefits mentioned by @HesedTech, I found out with the RL1100 that a correctly set up swage and hold down significantly helped to reduce variances in OAL. Even though I use same headstamp, fully pre-processed brass, I was getting measurable reductions in finished cartridge OAL consistency. IMO, with the swage station being directly across from the seating station, it can have a positive or negative affect on shell plate flex. Didn't think about that. Good information. Edited January 27, 2023 by SIGcurious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, HesedTech said: The best swage hold down die is made by FW arms and has fixed the issue of having different head stamp base thickness. https://fwarms.com/shop/reloading/hold-downs/fw-arms-auto-case-centering-dshd/ Best purchase I made for my 1050. Had one I started out with on the Apex10, and found the 320* beyond "touching" was causing a cam-over for press operation. Then backed it off to 1/8" turn past touching, and had much better performance. IMO, that Dynamic die uses a very strong spring! But it is a top quality, premium product! @HesedTechdid you experience any issues setting up for your 1050? Since I was strictly using WIN same headstamp, fully pre-processed brass, I decided to try the "included" Lyman Pro hold down die and so far it's worked flawlessly. The urethane insert does provide just a bit of "give" and I feel confident it would stop the process if a stray slipped though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HesedTech Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said: you experience any issues setting up for your 1050? I load range brass and gave up sorting head stamps years ago. I process and load large (thousands) quantities of 223/5.56 and 9mm on my 1050 and because the hold down die at the swager couldn’t be set precisely because of the variety of head stamps swaging didn’t always go as well as I would have liked. If I set it to the thinnest base there would be variations in OAL. When FW came out with their spring loaded self centering hold down die I jumped in it. Now OALs and swaging are far more consistent. I also use a spring loaded hold down die at the priming station. Really improves consistency in primer seating depth. https://lvl10i.com/products/priming-system-support-die-for-super-1050 Again the spring feature also keeps the consistency across the seating and crimp stations. I two pass my brass, the first is decap, swage and size. Then water tumble clean. Second pass for loading is Neck expander in station 1, and then powder, MBF, seating and crimping in normal stations. After 10s of thousands never found a need to have a powder check. Really happy with this process. To answer the basic question, yes the issue always is making sure the OAL and primer depths were consistent. The swage backer setting with different head stamps was the main culprit. Edited January 28, 2023 by HesedTech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptimiStick Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 56 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said: Had one I started out with on the Apex10, and found the 320* beyond "touching" was causing a cam-over for press operation. How could you tell? What were the symptoms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, OptimiStick said: How could you tell? What were the symptoms? Prior to purchasing the Dynamic Hold Down die, I watched the "official" setup video a couple of times: https://youtu.be/AaxgLSKF6qk If you've seen the video, it's easy to understand that when setting up the hold down "foot" you run the die body down to where it touches the inner case head with the tool head down. Then after raising the tool head, the die body is rotated CW (down) an additional 320*. My understanding is this applies the "dynamic" spring loaded foot to provide a solid hold down while having enough spring variation to also accept different thickness headstamp brass. And, btw, the self centering part of the die is also a big plus when dealing with mixed range brass. As for my symptoms, I'm sure you can imagine setting the hold down foot to intercept and solidly hold the case at the exact bottom of the stroke; then when I ran the die body down an additional 320*, this caused the foot to contact the same headstamp, basically same thickness brass "before" the toolhead had bottomed out in it's stroke travel. So, continuing to intercept the stop of the press handle required the foot to compress the dynamic spring for 320* of travel which I relate to as "cam over"......... Sorry if this is TMI.........but just how I interpret this die is supposed to work with a simplified explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 47 minutes ago, HesedTech said: I load range brass and gave up sorting head stamps years ago. I process and load large (thousands) quantities of 223/5.56 and 9mm on my 1050 and because the hold down die at the swager couldn’t be set precisely because of the variety of head stamps swaging didn’t always go as well as I would have liked. If I set it to the thinnest base there would be variations in OAL. When FW came out with their spring loaded self centering hold down die I jumped in it. Now OALs and swaging are far more consistent. I also use a spring loaded hold down die at the priming station. Really improves consistency in primer seating depth. https://lvl10i.com/products/priming-system-support-die-for-super-1050 @HesedTechI can definitely relate to your reasons for using the spring loaded FW Arms and Level10 dies! IMO, they definitely stabilize the shellplate/process producing far more consistency! I also appreciate my situation that uses same headstamp brass where I can set the hold down and swage to produce little to no shell plate deflection while directly seeing this effect the consistency at the seating and crimping stations. I will interject that for me, this has been much easier to setup on the Apex10 than with the RL1100....... Always good to hear of your knowledge and experience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 50 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said: Prior to purchasing the Dynamic Hold Down die, I watched the "official" setup video a couple of times: https://youtu.be/AaxgLSKF6qk If you've seen the video, it's easy to understand that when setting up the hold down "foot" you run the die body down to where it touches the inner case head with the tool head down. Then after raising the tool head, the die body is rotated CW (down) an additional 320*. My understanding is this applies the "dynamic" spring loaded foot to provide a solid hold down while having enough spring variation to also accept different thickness headstamp brass. And, btw, the self centering part of the die is also a big plus when dealing with mixed range brass. As for my symptoms, I'm sure you can imagine setting the hold down foot to intercept and solidly hold the case at the exact bottom of the stroke; then when I ran the die body down an additional 320*, this caused the foot to contact the same headstamp, basically same thickness brass "before" the toolhead had bottomed out in it's stroke travel. So, continuing to intercept the stop of the press handle required the foot to compress the dynamic spring for 320* of travel which I relate to as "cam over"......... Sorry if this is TMI.........but just how I interpret this die is supposed to work with a simplified explanation. I'm confused. Isn't what you are describing exactly how it is supposed to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 20 minutes ago, ddc said: I'm confused. Isn't what you are describing exactly how it is supposed to work? Yes Sir! My point is since I was using same headstamp, fully pre process brass I didn't really need the additional "dynamic" spring hold down with every cycle of the press handle. Again, the die's spring is pretty stout and was producing resistance I didn't really need........... It's an excellent product and works exactly as designed. IMO, it's benefits really shine when processing large quantities of mixed range brass! Sorry for any confusion............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptimiStick Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Yeah, I know how the die works - I've seen and used the setup video and I have one installed- but to me that's normal operation. You're using the spring to engage the foot early, so that as different webbing thicknesses come , you have positive engagement on all of them, to varying degrees. The spring giving you that range of engagement. Cam-over, to me is when the press keeps cranking past its mechanical stop - affecting its linkages. I hadn't seen it on my Revolution, which is why I was asking what the symptoms were. But I wouldn't' refer to that as cam-over. As least as I understand it. It's just the spring doing its thing. But you aren't pushing the press past TDC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptimiStick Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said: Sorry for any confusion............ No worries. I think just different understanding of a term. I was worried when you said you had camover in your Apex using the 320* (which I used also) , that maybe I was in the danger zone and didn't realize it - based on how I use the term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, OptimiStick said: Yeah, I know how the die works - I've seen and used the setup video and I have one installed- but to me that's normal operation. You're using the spring to engage the foot early, so that as different webbing thicknesses come , you have positive engagement on all of them, to varying degrees. The spring giving you that range of engagement. Cam-over, to me is when the press keeps cranking past its mechanical stop - affecting its linkages. I hadn't seen it on my Revolution, which is why I was asking what the symptoms were. But I wouldn't' refer to that as cam-over. As least as I understand it. It's just the spring doing its thing. But you aren't pushing the press past TDC. Yes, your right, as it was indeed the spring doing it's thing. But with my unfamiliarity of the Apex10 in "manual" operation, and the strong resistance of the spring, it felt just like earlier experiences of cam over in the old XL650 days......... Sorry for my confusion............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptimiStick Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 all good. Did you trip torquesense at all before you backed it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, OptimiStick said: all good. Did you trip torquesense at all before you backed it off? LOL! I wish! Unfortunately I'm still operating in "manual" mode..............for now. But automation is definitely in my future plans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 3 hours ago, HesedTech said: To answer the basic question, yes the issue always is making sure the OAL and primer depths were consistent. The swage backer setting with different head stamps was the main culprit. This is gold. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptimiStick Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 38 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said: LOL! I wish! Unfortunately I'm still operating in "manual" mode..............for now. But automation is definitely in my future plans! Aha. Yeah its a game changer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 5 hours ago, HesedTech said: The best swage hold down die is made by FW arms and has fixed the issue of having different head stamp base thickness. https://fwarms.com/shop/reloading/hold-downs/fw-arms-auto-case-centering-dshd/ Best purchase I made for my 1050. I have been using this for 223 and bought one for 9 mm, but I currently have an expander die in the swage station and have yet to use that die for 9mm. I think I will need to take you approach and process/load 9mm in two passes as I do with 223 to get more consistent ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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