Shotgun Stage Of The Month

[George]

Here is a simple and easy to set/run shotgun slug stage that can be tossed into any 3 gun match without too much hassle. It utilizes a realistic one slug per target engagement ethic, realistically tests loading skills and is division neutral as to who can win the stage outright.

vice_slug_a_dente.pdf

We ran this at our last club long gun match and here are our results:

vice_slugadente_results.pdf

Try it out at your next club match and report back in with your results.

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Regards,

[Neil Beverley]

George

I think you will find there are a couple of problems.

Other than stated divisional restrictions you are not permitted to stipulate the number of rounds loaded at the start. Rule 8.1.4 refers. Your options are Loaded or loaded but with an empty chamber or empty.

You can not declare paper targets as being worth 10 points per hit. There is no authority in the rules to declare them as being double value targets.

[George]

I know that Neil. The stage is supposed to run that way specifically so the two things I want to happen do occur. I WANT all the shooters to shoot to lock open before loading one round. I also WANT the shooters to get the same points for one slug hit as for two.

I understand exactly what you say is wrong with it from a strict rules sense. The stage was never designed to be run as an IPSC, or USPSA classifier. It was designed to be run at club matches where most folks don't worry about strict adherence to overly restrictive COF rules. This type of rulebending is very typical at club level 3 gun matches in the USA. Following the safety practices without deviation are what I put my effort into at the club level.

It's a practical stage and wasn't intended to be 100% rules compliant. The inability to do things like this with a stage at strict USPSA matches is one of the reason IMG rules exist. The rulebound attitude of USPSA is one of the reasons IMG matches stay IMG too. There needs to be a way to do what the stage designer wants within the rules, or the USPSA rules will continue to get ignored in favor of IMG rules. I choose to use USPSA rules at our club and bend as needed to get the desired results.

BTW, in principle, I don't believe in two slugs per target. I think a single slug hit oughta' be worth more than 5 points in the scheme of things too.

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Regards,

[curly]

George, where is the reload slug,belt ,mouth,hand etc.Thinking about this for a sidematch.Winner gets the sidematch entry fees

curly

[George]

My call would be anywhere but in one of your hands. In other words, ya' have to go somewhere for the round. I should have worded that in.

Here is a revised version that actually adheres to USPSA/IPSC rules about not specifying number of rounds loaded.

shotgun_el_presidente.pdf

[mike_pinto]

George,

I like it. We may shoot it if KurtM and Curly agree to it for our match this weekend. I'm like you in a sense that although the stage doesn't meet "requirements", who cares? It's a local match and is used to get folks more comfortable with reloading the shotgun and making fast, accurate hits.

Mike

[curly]

George,

I like it. We may shoot it if KurtM and Curly agree to it for our match this weekend. I'm like you in a sense that although the stage doesn't meet "requirements", who cares? It's a local match and is used to get folks more comfortable with reloading the shotgun and making fast, accurate hits.

Mike

mike,i have it printed off CURLY

[mike_pinto]

You da man.. See you Friday? Shoot me a PM and let me know what time, how many "practice" rounds, etc..

Mike

Edited March 14, 2006 by mike_pinto

[Schutzenmeister]

My call would be anywhere but in one of your hands. In other words, ya' have to go somewhere for the round. I should have worded that in.

Here is a revised version that actually adheres to USPSA/IPSC rules about not specifying number of rounds loaded.

shotgun_el_presidente.pdf

George

I'm like you in some ways ... except I tend to try to use the rules in my favor to give me an advantage over someone who bends them in course design and expects the shooters to all comply.

Would you like to wager I can get a higher HF by accepting the penalty for the blown-off reload and just shooting the 6 targets as fast and accurate as I can? It's only one 10 point penalty the way you've worked it ... I think I could trade that 10 points against the time wasted in the reload to beat you ... Try it both ways some time ... See what the results are.

The rules are written the way they're written to help keep gamesters like me from driving a Mac Truck through the holes you want to write into the CoF. They're there to keep the sport about shooting skills and not to test my ability to know when to game a stage for advantage.

Just food for thought ...

[George]

If I had to make a call as RM on a blown past reload, I would want to say it occurred the moment the first shot was fired with intent to blow past it, therefore it could be assessed as a procedural penalty per shot fired due to no intent to reload whatsoever from the start.

Another way to call it would be be to score a mike for the last target in addition to the procedural for the last shot fired without taking a reload. Because no reload was performed, the shot taken last was technically invalidated and no hit can be scored if it wasn't taken. It would not be ambigous about which target was the one engaged after the point the reload should have happened with slug sized holes at this range.

Lotsa' ways to game things both ways in this game.

Sure would love to arbitrate it at a match where I was MD ;-)

[Neil Beverley]

George

You can not declare paper targets as being worth 10 points per hit. There is no authority in the rules to declare them as being double value targets.

George

Update

FYI: The IPSC rules were changed in January 2006 and double value paper targets are now permitted in order to recognize/reward a difficult shot. The number of double value targets permitted in a match is still restricted to 10% of the match total.

The USPSA version of the shotgun rules, and the USPSA multigun rules haven't been changed as far as I'm aware, and so you still can't use double value paper targets for now.

[Neil Beverley]

If I had to make a call as RM on a blown past reload, I would want to say it occurred the moment the first shot was fired with intent to blow past it, therefore it could be assessed as a procedural penalty per shot fired due to no intent to reload whatsoever from the start.

Another way to call it would be be to score a mike for the last target in addition to the procedural for the last shot fired without taking a reload. Because no reload was performed, the shot taken last was technically invalidated and no hit can be scored if it wasn't taken. It would not be ambigous about which target was the one engaged after the point the reload should have happened with slug sized holes at this range.

Lotsa' ways to game things both ways in this game.

Sure would love to arbitrate it at a match where I was MD ;-)

Hi George

In my previous post I was simply updating you with a change to the new IPSC rules. I've just looked at your redesigned stage and with your forbearance I will add a couple of comments. These are not intended as criticism in any shape or form, but merely to try to get the stage to conform to the rules as written, which seemed to be the intent of your latest changes. So, with this in mind ..................

Unless the stage is established as a Classifier then it needs to be declared as a Standard Exercise so as to permit a mandatory reload (see 1.1.5.2). If it's a Standard Exercise then it is actually only a string of Standard Excercise and you need a second string to balance this one up (see 6.1.2). {Please note that the IPSC rules were changed in Jan 2006 to give the option to allow single string Standards and, furthermore, there is now an option to have Comstock Standards.}

The total score for the stage is only 30 points, miss penaties are 10 points each. There is no provision for 10 point paper targets.

You do not need to spell out that the reload ammo must not be held in competitors hand at the start. This is already covered by Rule 8.2.3.

Rule 10.2.4 specifically deals with the penalties to be applied in the case of failing to comply with a mandatory reload. However, there is no provision to score a miss for failing to comply. You only other recourse would be to invoke 10.6.1.

However, bearing in mind that this has to be a Standard Exercise you could sort out the gamers by declaring that the reload has to be be made after the first shot has been fired and before the fourth shot is fired. Then there would be at least 3 procedural penalties applicable for failure to comply with the mandatory reload.

I hope this helps and is received in the spirit intended.

Regards

Edited May 15, 2006 by Neil Beverley

[George]

Hi Neil,

Thanks, I really had not been through the 2006 changes yet and appreciate the heads up.

Next time y'all see this baby, it'll be gameproof ;-)

[Neil Beverley]

George

For now the 2006 changes will be for interest only as the US hasn't adopted the IPSC rules. So, for your stage design, you are already working with the appropraiate set of rules for the US and my comments about the stage were based on the same set of rules as you have used.

My comments relating to the 2006 IPSC rules were for interest only and hopefully to demonstrate that there have been some useful changes made. I personally wanted the option to have single string Standards, and Comstock Standards, way back in 2003 when we preparing the 2004 rules, but I was outvoted back then. Please bear in mind that these 2 (IPSC) changes have taken nothing away but instead allow more choices for stage designers, and for no loss.

[Schutzenmeister]

However, bearing in mind that this has to be a Standard Exercise you could sort out the gamers by declaring that the reload has to be be made after the first shot has been fired and before the fourth shot is fired. Then there would be at least 3 procedural penalties applicable for failure to comply with the mandatory reload.

I hope this helps and is received in the spirit intended.

Regards

Thank you Neil ... A stellar example of using the rules DURING course design to ensure the shooter does what the designer intends. As described by you, this course would now not be worth trying to game by blowing off the reload and intentionally taking the penalty.

George: Please forgive me for driving a virtual Mac Truck through your course description. Sometimes that's the best way to show where the hole in the design is. The point I'm trying to get across is that we should use the rules of the sport to design the course in such a way as to get the shooter to do what the course designer had in mind. Trying to impose the designer's will on the shooter by way of denying points contrary to the rulebook, or by imposing a DQ per say 10.6.1 are poor substitutes for good course design. All this does (IMHO) is to set up or further the perception of "us v. them" with respect to match officials and the competitors.

[Neil Beverley]

Actually I'm not convinced there would have been an advantage to take the penalty once we reduced the score values to 5 points per target because the penalty becomes 10 points out of 30 whereas at 10 points per target it is a whole different ball game.

With only 30 points max available on the stage I reckon that any reload sub 2 seconds probably takes the stage. At 60 points you need sub 1 second reloads to be better off.

Nevertheless, I much prefer to illiminate the problem before the start.

[George]

I'm back with a revised pair of the Presidente' series for shotgun.

Both of these are fully USPSA Shotgun 2004 compliant and feature a "test of reloading ability within existing rules" (not that shotgun needs any more testing of re-loading skills).

Here are PDF and Word versions (downrange facing start text added*)

shotgun_vice_presidente.doc

shotgun_el_presidente.pdf

shotgun_el_presidente.doc

shotgun_vice_presidente.pdf

[Neil Beverley]

George

Isn't the usual assumption that EL Ps start facing uprange? In which case the 90 degree safety angle will almost certainly be broken during a turn. A start position of facing downrange works OK. Would it be worth adding it to the stage notes?

Just a thought.

[George]

Not a bad idea. I know that's correct for pistola, but assumed that muzzle facing downrange would be assumed for shotgun/rifle stages. I see how that could be a problem

Revisions now posted above.

Thanks Neal.

[uscbigdawg]

About 4-5 years ago at Valley Practical we did a Shotgun El Prez on the fly. 6 paper and 6 poppers. Shooter chose load condition of their shotgun (slugs or shot and how many). With shotgun at low ready, on signal engage either the six poppers w/ birdshot or the 6 paper w/ 1 slug each only.

Done.

Everyone had to reload and yeah I know the tricks in Open 'cause that's how I won the stage.

Rich

[bigbrowndog]

I have drawn el prez, stages for shotgun and rifle in the past. the facing uprange is accomplished by having the gun start on top of a table or barrel.

Turn and pick up gun and start shooting, three targets just like the pistol "el prez", mandatory reload, after engaging the targets with 2 rounds each. shotgun w/slugs at 30yds, rifle at 50yds.

Considering that most shotguns (tactical) will hold 9 rds, by the rules. you need to reload three back in the gun, to complete the string. Rifle simply requires a mag change, and mags must come from the waist belt.