Lead Vs. Jacketed Bullets

[R112mercer]

One of the guys that got me started in shooting is of the opinion that shooting lead and jacketed bullets in the same gun degrades accuracy, even after a thorough cleaning before shooting each different type. I shoot both types and some of my guns are lead only, some jacketed only. There are other reasons why I do this, of course, mostly to keep the number of loads I use to a managable level. My question is: Has anybody heard of anything similar or had a similar experience? How about shooting lead and jacketed in the same session, without cleaning? How about overall clean-up? I know my jacketed-only guns are real easy to clean.

[GuildSF4]

I have used both in the same gun many times with no issues.

My understanding is that it is very dependent on the barrel (how smooth the bore is, etc.), the bullet (how soft), and the load (flame temp, etc), as to whether or not it will have problems with this... (i.e. how much leading is there in the barrel?)

[lynn jones]

no problems at all.

shoot a few jacketed bullets through your lead only guns to help clean the lead out.

lynn

[R112mercer]

GuildSF4;

You bring up a good point on type of load, flame temp, etc. The guy who told me about this (from my post above) told me that the gun he noticed the difference in was his .44 Mag Sillouette gun. He said after he ran lead hunting loads through it the accuracy was just never the same with jacketed. Just curious as to other people's experiences/opinions/etc. Thanks, guys.

[heebs]

Have done this many times with lead and jacketed bullets at the same shooting session. ALWAYS shoot the jacketed first, then the lead to be on the safe side. Some guns will lead, others won't. I would be very leary of shooting lead and then jacketed. Alot of people think the jacketed cleans out the lead, but it actually smashes the lead down and not completely out. Saw this on a revolver that looked really nice and clean after shooting the jacketed bullets. Then I went home to clean it and got some nice chunks out of lead from right by the forcing cone and slivers of lead the first inch of the rifling. Since then its been jacket first and then lead. GuildSF is right as it depends on the gun. My 2 cents worth.

Heebs

[revchuck]

The silhouette guys are super-picky on accuracy, so he may have a point.

The biggest issue I've had is that lead and jacketed bullets of the same weight and going the same velocity will often have different points of impact. This can be a problem if you shoot lead for practice to save money and then use jacketed for matches. I've had them be off as much as four inches at 25 yards. This seems to happen more often with revolvers than with autoloaders, but that may be because I shoot revolvers more often.

[SIX SHOT]

I've made cast bullets for almost 40 years & I'm still learning. Its amazing some of the voodoo you read & hear about them. I guess the shortest answer I can give is, don't shoot a soft bullet fast or a hard bullet slow, size the bullet to the correct diameter and shoot them at a velocity that your gun likes.

I use them for competition and for hunting, throughout the US & also in Africa & they always work if you've matched the bullet/load to the application at hand. As far as cleanup, a few jacketed rounds will work, or try some 0000 steel wool on a cleaning brush. The gun will get dirty faster because of the lube, try differnt brands to find out which is best. I use LBT lube for my high velocity hunting loads & the hard lube from Ballisticast for my competition ammo. Hope this helps.

Dick Thompson

[R112mercer]

Dick;

0000 Steel Wool, eh? I usually avoid any kind of abrasive in my bores. I just use solvent soaked patches and dry patches till they're clean, even on lead barrels. With the exception of one barrel that I used to use a brass brush on, all of my barrels typically clean up in three wet patches and two dry ones. I could see that 0000 steel wool is real fine and may just polish the bore, but I've found that jacketed bullets seem to do that on their own.

[anachronism]

Ummm...No. Cast bullets "lead" a lot easier when fired in a barrel that already has jacket fouling. The reason for this is that jacket fouling is rough, kinda like a really fine file. This fouling abrades the bullet, causing leading. Cast bullets also shoot a lot better in a "seasoned" bore. This is a lot like seasoning a cast iron skillet, the lube fills and seals the pores of the metal, essentially leaving you with a "non-stick" surface. This seasoning helps prevent leading, as long as it is not removed from the bore. This is the reason you'll sometimes hear old-time cast bullet shooters tell you how they never clean their guns. So some people actually do have devoted cast bullet guns. And these guns never see a jacketed bullet, a jacketed bullet would ruin everything, and they'd have to strip the bore, and start the seasoning process all over again. To remove leading from your bores, use a brass based pot scrubber like "Chore Boy". Make certain you get the brass one, the stainless one will screw up your barrel in short order. Personally, I wouldn't use steel wool either, it can scratch your barrel. It may not, but why risk it? One more thing, and I'll get off my soap box, I promise. Shooting a jacketed bullet through a leaded bore will remove some of the heavier, looser lead fouling. It will also "iron" the smaller, better attached particles into the pores of the barrel metal, making it even tougher to remove. I always end up using my (evil) Foul-Out on barrels that have had this treatment. This may be the single largest cause of barrel leading, outside of improperly sized bullets, too. If theres leading already present in a bore, even minute traces, lead from successive bullets will eventually attach itself to the already present traces, and the whole cycle starts all over again.

Bob

[R112mercer]

Ummm...No. Cast bullets "lead" a lot easier when fired in a barrel that already has jacket fouling. The reason for this is that jacket fouling is rough, kinda like a really fine file. This fouling abrades the bullet, causing leading. Cast bullets also shoot a lot better in a "seasoned" bore. This is a lot like seasoning a cast iron skillet, the lube fills and seals the pores of the metal, essentially leaving you with a "non-stick" surface. This seasoning helps prevent leading, as long as it is not removed from the bore. This is the reason you'll sometimes hear old-time cast bullet shooters tell you how they never clean their guns. So some people actually do have devoted cast bullet guns. And these guns never see a jacketed bullet, a jacketed bullet would ruin everything, and they'd have to strip the bore, and start the seasoning process all over again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anachronism;

This is closer to what I was getting at. I've also heard the "don't follow jacketed with lead" deal and feel it makes sense. I have dedicated guns, lead or jacketed. Not so much because of what we're talking about, it's just that I try to have as few loads as possible for a gun. To take the "seasoning a bore" argument one step further you could argue that the same holds true for a jacketed-only bore. The jacketed bullet would tend to polish the bore a bit more, but it would still deposit some jacket material in the pores of the bore. There's an interesting article on this somewhere on the website for Schuemann barrels. He doesn't clean his barrels at all. Ever. But he also owns a barrel company .

[SIX SHOT]

I have also used jacketed & cast in the same match many times, when we shoot at Jackson Hole, Wyoming the range faces to the East & the first stage you can get smoke from the lube with cast so I always start out using Berry plated loads on stage one & then normally finish the match with cast. My 610 will shoot 1" groups after the match at 15 yds everytime I mix the bullets this way.

Its a given that you must have a smooth barrel, it can't be any other way! Just run a few hundred jacketed through a new barrel and you should be fine, and no I don't agree with mixing loads, I just mention the fact that sometimes for me its necessary when shooting early in the morning when facing to the east.

As I see it there are only 2 draw backs to shooting cast, your gun gets dirty faster, and you have to deal with a small amount of smoke assuming you are using the correct lube. Outside of the race guns with comps mounted I see more advantages to using cast than disadvantages.

More velocity with less powder, bullets cost less, much less if you cast your own. Easier on the gun. I read an old shooting times magazine article once showing the crown of 2 identical guns, one shooting 5000 cast & the other shooting 5000 jacketed, you didn't need a microscope to see the muzzle wear in the jacketed gun, it was very noticeably.

The idea of using steel wool came from former world champion, Ross Seyfried, its works slick, I do add a little WD40 on the wool, never any damage to the bore.

Dick

Dick

[anachronism]

  The idea of using steel wool came from former world champion, Ross Seyfried,  its works slick, I do add a little WD40 on the wool, never any damage to the bore.

    Dick

Dick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember Seyfried writing about that too, now that you mention it. I've always had other ways that worked well, so I never tried it myself.

Bob

[SIX SHOT]

Bob,

You're right, there are several ways to get the lead out, one mentioned earlier on this thread was using the foul out machine, I have one but have never used it to remove lead but I'm sure it works just as good as they do on jacketed fouling. I still believe the biggest problem with using cast bullets is not understanding the hardness/velocity matchup, most commercial cast bullets are quite hard & if a new shooter shoots them at a slow velocity where the bullet doesn't "slug up" to fit the bore correctly, he will look in side, see the gas cutting and start cussing because his barrel is leaded.

One of the really great things about cast bullets is you can size them however you choose, to get a proper fit in YOUR gun. I recently took a 120 gr. truncated bullet designed for a 9mm & sized some .355" then .356" & finally some at .358' and shot them in one of my 357's. The .358's shot best, no surprise here, just shows you that you can match your slugs to your barrel. Jacketed bullets are: shootum as you seeum!

At the same time we are blessed to have so many great jacketed bullets avail-able for those that don't cast. 40 years ago there were very few decent jacketed handgun bullets that worked on game, I shot thousands of the old Speer 3/4 jacket slugs back then, the nose would shear off and the back penetrated pretty good. Quite a few Armadillos learned to hate this bullet! Dick