Seeking suggestions on how I should modify load

[IDescribe]

4 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Curious, do you know what CFE Pistol is targeting for an application?

 

I'd say according to Hodgdon's data, anything where a 115gr projectile needed to be driven up near or just over 1200 feet/sec, or a 124/125gr bullet up near or over 1100 feet/sec.  And since the CFE powders main marketing point was an additive that reduces copper fouling, I'd say it was intended to use with jacketed bullets, though there's nothing that would make it bad, per se, with non-jacketed, just that it was developed with jacketed in mind.

Look at those steps I listed earlier.  It's not that Hodgdon has a specific application in mind.  It's that Hodgdon saw a space in the market for a powder with copper-fouling preventative properties that would drive bullets in that velocity range.  Maybe it's low flash, as well -- I don't know.  Maybe it's a fine fine self defense powder.  But it's a less than optimal 9mm minor powder.

 

 

4 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Is Power Pistol also a medium burn?

Yes?    Depending on what day you get me, I might talk about slow vs fast, or slow vs medium vs fast.  Give the right conversation, and I might describe WSF as a faster medium, BE-86 as a medium, and Power Pistol as a slower medium.    Talking about powders as being faster or slower than another powder is useful to talk about powders for a particular application, but

 

I'm not sure the label is that important in and of itself.  If I call BE-86 a medium burn rate powder, and someone else calls Powder Pistol a medium burn rate powder, and someone else calls WSF and CFE Pistol medium burn rate powders, that doesn't mean they'll substitute for each other.  It just means they're not especially fast or slow burning.  You still need to look at velocities ranges in the load data.

 

 

4 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Is the idea hear that a faster burn will be better for getting the desired velocity for minor?

Err... Yes?    Recoil is a consideration for 9mm minor.  The slower the powder, the more powder it takes to reach a particular velocity, the more powder it takes, the stronger the recoil impulse.  It's not the end-all, be-all of loading for 9mm minor, but it's a consideration.  There is also the consideration of the pressure seal on ignition, and getting one fast enough that you're not blowing powder out between the case walls and chamber walls back into your pistol.  Most (not all, by any stretch) people use powders for 9mm minor that reach the desired velocity in the top half of a powder's load window, which earns both of these desirable traits.  I'm NOT a proponent of chasing the fastest powders possible for 9mm minor (many people are), but getting a reasonably fast powder to get efficient burns at small charge weights is desirable.  I use Bullseye.


If you want to try a faster powder for 9mm minor, but you still want to use up that 9 pounds of CFE you bought, load 9mm loads near CFE Pistol's max loads, and use them for self defense practice.  It's not a bad thing to get time behind a harder recoiling load.  It's still 9mm, so it's not going to be too rough, but some time behind stout 9mm loads isn't a bad thing.   

[PaleoMan]

6 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

1) Load to the shortest OAL, that way it will/should work in either pistol.

 

2) Don't take this the wrong way but you're all over the place, this isn't all that difficult. Since you have an OAL (1.14) that works in all your pistols (for that specific bullet) you should make three sets of 20 test rounds using CFE Pistol. Start with 20 rounds at 4.6gr, then 20 rounds at 4.8gr, lastly 20 rounds at 5.0gr. Don't mix and match components or change the OAL half way through the process, make them all the same. Chrono the loads, see what works and run with it.

 

3) Much is made about powder selection but the truth is that many powders from slow(er) to fast(er) can work well in 9mm. I load WSF which is considered fairly slow for 9mm minor but it's what I like and very accurate. I guess what I'm saying is that there's no reason to abruptly abandon CFE pistol, you have it so you might as well use it! If you want to move to something faster next time (Titegroup, HP-38/231 [they're the same powder], N320 etc.) then start the process all over again.

 

1) That is the plan.

 

2) Probably will take it the wrong way, as I'm trying very hard to be methodical here, and up to now, have always found it to be a simple process that I do just as you describe above. I didn't change OAL in mid process, but I had no choice but to change primers (which upon asking, folks are saying it shouldn't matter). Here's a summary of what I did so far...

 

- I made a change to OAL. => 1.132"

- As a result, I worked up loads (4.6gr, 4.8gr, 5.0gr[max], 5.1gr)

- I picked 4.8gr, as although the 4.6 were accurate, I was concerned about PF.

- I started making batches of 100.

- I thought I had another box of CCI primers, but I did not, and ran out after 200 cartridges.

- That prompted me to switch to Fiocchi primers, sooner than planned.

- I was unsure of whether the results with Fiocchi would differ, so after making the 200 CCI primer cartridges, I loaded up Fiocchi primers and made 60 at the same OAL and load (4.8gr)

- The chrono data showed it MUCH lower in velocity for the Fiocchi primer cartridges.

 

That is where I posted for suggestions.  I was perplexed as I wasn't expecting much difference between the two primers (as I know everything else was the same).

 

I don't have any more CCI primers, but I do have more of the cartridges. I decided to create more of the cartridges with Fiocchi primers at 4.8gr and same 1.132" OAL, today, to double check the results. I just chrono'ed the CCI and Fiocchi primers. It's not strictly apples to apples, because I had to set the load to 4.8gr, and there is the possibility that there was some difference in load, but I content that the first test I did, regardless of whether the load was 4.8 or higher, it was identical for the two primers (as I just reloaded the primer tube).

 

People have been suggesting adjusting the OAL and changing the powder.  So, I decided to do two additional things...

 

First, I've changed my OAL (came out to about 1.145"), based on the suggested method, and I have created 4.6gr, 4.8gr, and 5.0gr loads with Fiocchi primers and CFE Pistol. I chrono'ed that as well, and will report.

 

Second, I bought one pound of HP-38 powder, and I can try working up loads with that when I get a chance. It looks like, using Precision Bullets (coated), I could use the Hodgdon data for LCN. It has a start of 3.9gr and max of 4.4gr. This would be with the 1.145" OAL that I've just readjusted for with CFE pistol. I'll compare that to the CFE Pistol results.

 

I am concerned that either (A) The Fiocchi primers do affect the velocity considerably, (B) I have a bad case of Fiocchi primers, or (C) I'm really missing something here.

 

 

[4n2t0]

You don't have a bad case of primers. You're probably missing something because you're trying not to miss anything. Load rounds, chrono rounds, add powder until the desired PF is attained, done.

 

I think you're overthinking the whole thing.

 

P.S. Maybe it's the chrono, lol.

Edited June 4, 2018 by 4n2t0

[PaleoMan]

Here's what I have for chrono data...

 

CCI primers, 1.132" OAL from previous batch, should be 4.8gr.

V5 average=1010.35, PF5 average=126.3

 

Fiocchi primers, 1.132" OAL fresh made 4.8gr.

V5 average=971.9, PF5 average=121.49

 

Fiocchi primers, 1.145" OAL fresh made 4.6gr.

V5 average=920.47, PF5 average=115.06

 

Fiocchi primers, 1.145" OAL fresh made 4.8gr.

V5 average=948.25, PF5 average=118.53

 

Fiocchi primers, 1.145" OAL fresh made 5.0gr.

V5 average=1007.1, PF5 average=125.89

 

 

Observations:

 

- Of the Fiocchi primer rounds I tested, the 5.0gr were the most accurate in my subjective POI (30' on rest).

- 5.0gr obviously had the most recoil, but subjectively not excessive.

- The SD still seems to be high, compared to what I used to get (23-45 seen in all the sets, with 23 for the CCI cartridges).

- Looks like the shorter OAL (0.013"), comparing the 4.8gr Fiocchi cartridges I made toady, I see a 23.65 fps velocity difference.

 

 

I'm thinking of trying these things...

 

1) Pull the bullet on one of CCI primer cartridges and try to weigh the powder. The only thing I can think of here that makes sense is that the load is much higher than 4.8gr.

 

2) Try 5.2gr with the Fiocchi primers and OAL 1.145" that I currently have. This should bring it above PF=125 and should still have a velocity under 1156 fps that they show in the Hodgdon data for max. This could be what I use, until I use up the CFE Pistol.

 

 

Regards,

 

PCM

 

 

[PaleoMan]

2 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

You don't have a bad case of primers. You're probably missing something because you're trying not to miss anything. Load rounds, chrono rounds, add powder until the desired PF is attained, done.

 

I think you're overthinking the whole thing.

 

P.S. Maybe it's the chrono, lol.

Yeah probably am. Don't care much for mysteries...like to fully understand why I see what I see. I nags me from the process of just increasing the load and calling it a day. Character flaw likely.

 

[PaleoMan]

I used my bullet puller and took apart one of the 1.132" OAL CCI primer cartridges that were loaded with 4.8gr of CFE Pistol. Measured out to 4.1gr, though not sure if I got all the powder out of the puller, and how much powder 0.7gr is (I could check).  At first glance, it doesn't seem like the load was unexpectedly high, though.

 

I'm still planning on moving up the load on the Fiocchi primers, with the newer 1.145" OAL, to get to minor levels.

 

I may grab one box of CCI primers and try another apples to apples check against the Fiocchi. That large of a difference seen previously, is still nagging at me...

 

 

[Steve RA]

If you have a powder scale you might try weighing your trial loads powder just to make sure you are getting the powder charge you think you are.  If you then decide on a powder charge, set your measure on the press and weigh at least 10 charges to make sure it is dispensing what you want.

[4n2t0]

Hopefully I don't confuse you, especially since I'm the one that suggested finding the max OAL for your barrel(s), but you can safely shorten the OAL to squeeze some velocity out of the load. The reason knowing the max OAL for a particular bullet/barrel combo is important is because you don't want the round to be too long for the chamber, duh, but shortening it is completely acceptable. Don't go stupid short, for a 125gr projectile I'd probably use 1.10 as the floor. Maybe try this:

 

10 x 4.8gr of CFE pistol at 1.13

10 x 4.8gr of CFE pistol at 1.12

10 x 4.8gr of CFE pistol at 1.11

10 x 4.8gr of CFE pistol at 1.10

 

Chrono from longest to shortest always checking for signs of over-pressure (although I doubt you'll have any problems). See if the shorter rounds get you the velocity you're looking for while remaining reliable.

Edited June 5, 2018 by 4n2t0

[Hi-Power Jack]

Just a guess, but I doubt you'd see any significant difference in

velocity from 1.13" to 1.10".    Just a guess    

[4n2t0]

12 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Just a guess, but I doubt you'd see any significant difference in

velocity from 1.13" to 1.10".    Just a guess    

 

Define significant. He may get 25-40 fps more velocity, maybe. That may be enough for him to comfortably make power factor, if not with 4.8gr than definitely with 5.0gr.

Edited June 6, 2018 by 4n2t0

[Hi-Power Jack]

4n2t0, I'm not arguing - merely hypothesizing.  I'd love to see the results of that test you proposed.

 

The OP got 85 fps difference from changing primers …   Hard to say that 25 fps more or less

from altering the OAL would actually be "significant" with fluctuations like that being reported.

 

As you mentioned yesterday, something else is at work here besides primer changes.    

 

 

[4n2t0]

8 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

4n2t0, I'm not arguing - merely hypothesizing.  I'd love to see the results of that test you proposed.

 

The OP got 85 fps difference from changing primers …   Hard to say that 25 fps more or less

from altering the OAL would actually be "significant" with fluctuations like that being reported.

 

As you mentioned yesterday, something else is at work here besides primer changes.    

 

 

 

I'm not arguing either just noting that it may be significant if it helps him add some buffer room over the PF bar without needing to add powder.

 

I agree that something's definitely wonky, unfortunately it's driving him nuts, lol.

[IDescribe]

7 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

4n2t0, I'm not arguing - merely hypothesizing.  I'd love to see the results of that test you proposed

 

Ask, and you shall receive.  

 

In the data below, that last number is the change in velocity from one OAL to the next. 

 

You will note that the first reduction in OAL shows a loss of velocity.  That's because 1.14 is long enough to seat firmly into the rifling, which increases pressure.  Of course, dropping from 1.14 to 1.12 also increases pressure, so it's safe to say in this case, seating into the rifling was worth almost the same as a .02 change in OAL.  It was almost a wash. 

 

 I'd also note that a change of 15-20 feet/sec is about what I get with that bullet and powder for a tenth of a grain of powder, so for this test, a change of OAL of .02 was worth about the same as a tenth of a grain of powder. 

 

Results below:

 

 

Bullet:      Montana Gold 124gr JHP
Powder:      Vihtavuori N320
Primers:      Federal SPP
Brass:         Starline -- used

Charge Weight:  3.6gr
 
OAL 1.14 - - 925  feet/sec
OAL 1.12 - - 922  feet/sec | -3
OAL 1.10 - - 941  feet/sec | +19
OAL 1.08 - - 962  feet/sec | +19
OAL 1.06 - - 979  feet/sec | +17
OAL 1.04 - - 994  feet/sec | +15

 

[Steve RA]

We may be confusing the issue by suggesting a number of things he can possibly do.  It's best to only change one thing at a time  !!!

Edited June 6, 2018 by Steve RA
bored

[4n2t0]

14 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

We may be confusing the issue by suggesting a number of things he can possibly do.  It's best to only change one thing at a time  !!!

 

He is changing one thing at a time!!! Going over the max to 5.2gr can be avoided by shortening the OAL.

[PaleoMan]

7 hours ago, IDescribe said:

 

Ask, and you shall receive.  

 

In the data below, that last number is the change in velocity from one OAL to the next. 

 

You will note that the first reduction in OAL shows a loss of velocity.  That's because 1.14 is long enough to seat firmly into the rifling, which increases pressure.  Of course, dropping from 1.14 to 1.12 also increases pressure, so it's safe to say in this case, seating into the rifling was worth almost the same as a .02 change in OAL.  It was almost a wash. 

 

 I'd also note that a change of 15-20 feet/sec is about what I get with that bullet and powder for a tenth of a grain of powder, so for this test, a change of OAL of .02 was worth about the same as a tenth of a grain of powder. 

 

Results below:

 

 

Bullet:      Montana Gold 124gr JHP
Powder:      Vihtavuori N320
Primers:      Federal SPP
Brass:         Starline -- used

Charge Weight:  3.6gr
 
OAL 1.14 - - 925  feet/sec
OAL 1.12 - - 922  feet/sec | -3
OAL 1.10 - - 941  feet/sec | +19
OAL 1.08 - - 962  feet/sec | +19
OAL 1.06 - - 979  feet/sec | +17
OAL 1.04 - - 994  feet/sec | +15

 

So, I had seen about 2x the change...

Fiocchi primers, 1.132" OAL fresh made 4.8gr

V5 average=971.9, PF5 average=121.49

 

Fiocchi primers, 1.145" OAL fresh made 4.8gr.

V5 average=948.25, PF5 average=118.53

 

A decrease of 0.013" gave 25 fps increase.

 

I see a few things I could try...probably in this order...

 

1. Get CCI primers and see what velocity I get from the current 1.145" OAL and 4.8gr powder. I'm still haunted by the fact that I saw a large change once. Would like to reproduce.
2. Try 5.2gr with Fiocchi primers at the current 1.145" OAL to see if I can get a comfortable margin over minor PF (5.0 gr was 125.89)
3. Try 5.0gr with Fiocchi primers with a shorter OAL (1.135" or 1.125"), again to see if I can get the PF slightly higher.

I am still wondering about the std. dev. seen and the changes from load to load (4.6gr => 4.8gr was 27.78 fps, 4.8gr => 5.0gr was 58.85 fps).

 

 

 

[Steve RA]

As long as no pressure signs are evident, the listed maximum is just a guide, not an absolute.

[PaleoMan]

On 6/6/2018 at 5:09 AM, IDescribe said:

 

Ask, and you shall receive.  

 

In the data below, that last number is the change in velocity from one OAL to the next. 

 

You will note that the first reduction in OAL shows a loss of velocity.  That's because 1.14 is long enough to seat firmly into the rifling, which increases pressure.  Of course, dropping from 1.14 to 1.12 also increases pressure, so it's safe to say in this case, seating into the rifling was worth almost the same as a .02 change in OAL.  It was almost a wash. 

 

 I'd also note that a change of 15-20 feet/sec is about what I get with that bullet and powder for a tenth of a grain of powder, so for this test, a change of OAL of .02 was worth about the same as a tenth of a grain of powder. 

 

Results below:

 

 

Bullet:      Montana Gold 124gr JHP
Powder:      Vihtavuori N320
Primers:      Federal SPP
Brass:         Starline -- used

Charge Weight:  3.6gr
 
OAL 1.14 - - 925  feet/sec
OAL 1.12 - - 922  feet/sec | -3
OAL 1.10 - - 941  feet/sec | +19
OAL 1.08 - - 962  feet/sec | +19
OAL 1.06 - - 979  feet/sec | +17
OAL 1.04 - - 994  feet/sec | +15

 

Thanks for the data points, BTW.

 

Looks like a consistent increase of about 20 fps per 0.02". What type of standard deviation do you see with the loads that you generate?

[IDescribe]

54 minutes ago, PaleoMan said:

What type of standard deviation do you see with the loads that you generate?

 

Occasionally 4.  5-6 is common and what I consider good. 7 is acceptable. 8-9 is a little higher than what I like, but if they print well on target, I don't care much.  And some loads, particularly toward the bottom of the load window, will tick a couple spots higher than that. 

 

SD to me is a measurement of how tight my own gear and process is.  It's just something for me to know that I'm doing my part in terms of consistency and maybe pat myself on the back here and there.  But at the end of the day, how tight the groups print on paper is all that matters. 

 

And it's also worth noting that SD and ES are heavily affected by how you set up the chrono when it's a chrono using optical sensors.  So sometimes bad SD and ES have little to do with the cartridges.   In the case of the non-optical ones like you're using, I have no insight on setup and improving precision. 

 

But I did see your SD number earlier and meant to comment.  That's crazy high in my book.  If that's accurate, you might want to start weighing individual powder drops and make sure you're not getting wild variation in drops. 

 

Also, powder settles as the drop moves, so after you put powder in the hopper, you should cycle it a bunch before loading.  I do it it at least 20 to 30 times after getting the charge weight dialed in, just to make sure it's not drifting. 

 

Static can cause variation in powder drops, as well.  Dirty drops do, as well. 

 

AND if you are leaving powder in the hopper after you're done loading, stop.  Dump it back in its container. It will cling together and "bridge" over the dispensing reservoir its supposed to fall into with each cycle of the drop, and can cause wild variations drop to drop.  Always empty the drop when you are done loading.  Don't ask me how I know. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by IDescribe

[PaleoMan]

Hmm. I'm lucky to get SD down to 15.  I'll double check on the measuring process to see if I'm making errors in chrono use.

 

W.r.t. powder, I'm using a Dillon 650 and I fill the hopper each time I load (and empty it after each loading session).  I shake the hopper cylinder numerous times to try to get the powder to settle some. Then, I run through five drops (tapping the case on the top of the hopper as I pour the powder back in - to help settling). On the sixth, I measure the load on my electronic scale. If off, I adjust the hopper, do five drops, and then check the sixth drop again.

 

If the drop is correct. I add four more drops to the scale and see if the sum is four times the desired load. I accept, if it is within +/- 0.1gr.

 

Maybe I should do more repetitions, once dialed in?

 

What do you do for static mitigation?

 

Thanks for all the suggestions, BTW!

 

 

 

[4n2t0]

SD at pistol distances doesn't matter all that much. For lack of a better description SD is a measure of velocity uniformity. If you have a SD of 15 that means you'd expect 68% of your shots to be within +/- 15 fps of the average velocity. Within 20 yards you'd be hard pressed to see a difference on paper between a SD of 7 and 15. Remember, SD by itself is not a guarantee of acceptable accuracy, it's a good indicator but there are other factors which affect accuracy.

 

Some powders meter well, CFE being one of the better metering powders. For static I rub the inside of the powder measure with dryer sheets. Some areas and seasons are worst for static than others.

 

You're still overthinking all this...

[PaleoMan]

I picked up a box of CCI primers and made 20 rounds with those and then 20 rounds with Fiocchi primers. All with 5.0 gr of CFE Pistol powder. I made absolutely sure that the drops were consistent. Did 10 drops and had 50.0gr, and after making the cartridges, I did another drop and it was 5.0gr. I also measured each cartridge made to make sure they were similar.

 

Another thing I did, was hand pick the cases, so that they are all WIN cases. I separate the cases by brand, after cleaning, separate out any off brands, keeping only name brand for loading. I’ll load up the press with one brand, but as it runs low, I may fill with another. Over time, there can be several cases being used.

 

If this causes a variance, then I’ll try to keep brands more separate, or just consider that, when evaluating the chrono data.

 

In any case, I did some chrono’ing Of the shots and will publish results later tonight.

 

Regards,

 

[PaleoMan]

Th the CCI primers I’m seeing, on average, about 20 fps higher, than the Fiocchi primers, using the same shells, bullets, pr8mer and load. Seeing 1019.9 fps vs 1000.3 fps at 5 feet out. That gives a PF of 127.49 and 125.04, respectively. The OAL was closer to 1.148” on all the rounds (I get a longer OAL, when the stations are loaded up).

 

looks like I mcould go to 5.2 or so, and be fine for minor. I just wanted to compare CCI again.

 

I did try 20 rounds using Fiocchi primers, but with a shorter OAL (1.140”, didn’t have time to get it down to 1.135”). The average velocity for 20 rounds was 999 fps. Not sure why there was no increase in velocity.

 

I may try to go a little shorter to see how it works out. It is just hard to do, as I can set the OAL, but once I run all stations (Dillon 650), meaning I am decapping in station 1. there is a small change in OAL (up to 0.006”).

 

In any case, I satisfied my CCI primer curiousity (it does seem to give a higher velocity), and will now focus on getting the PF up a small amount more.

 

Regards,

 

[Steve RA]

Just creep up the powder charge until you reach the power factor that you want.  Stick to one brand of primer or the other.

[PaleoMan]

Sticking with the Fiocchi's as I have 12,000 of them, I shortened the OAL to 1.135" (which is what I wanted to try, but didn't have time before). The OAL came out to about 1.136". I created 20 of 5.0gr, 5.2gr, and 5.3gr loads. I had mixed cases. Using the Precision Bullets 125 gr coated RN.

 

Here are the results...

 

5.0gr...

V5 ave = 1005 fps

PF5 = 125.63

std dev = 37.07

 

5.2gr...

V5 ave = 1043.9 fps

PF5 = 130.49

std dev = 30.36

 

5.3gr...

V5 ave = 1070.3 fps

PF5 = 133.79

std dev = 24.59

 

I liked the accuracy I was getting with both the 5.2gr and 5.3gr loads.  Primers on them both looked just fine (as expected).

 

Looks like I'll stick with the 5.3 grain loads.

 

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone!