Anyone using a 9mm in rifle??

[Carlos]

I shoot 3 gun near DC - often indoors where we are limited to 50 yards. Even though I use either .223 or .308 indoors, it occures to me that I could use the Colt 9mm AR15 upper instead.  Any setup or ammo hints from those using a 9mm rifle?

Outdoors, most ranges in the capitol area are limited to 100 yards or less - I may have found the perfect gun for mid atlantic 3 gun. Thoughts?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Our club has match re-entries in handgun matches using pistol caliber carbines.  Primarily Colt, but some guys insist on trying to get the new HK clones to work.

We use standard 9mm loads, a 125 jrn and 4.2 of Bullseye will work.  If you're going to get razzed for using a 9mm, and told "It doesn't make Minor" then make sure you can reach the 160PF for rifle minor.  (160? 165?)

With a 16" 9mm barrel, it isn't hard.  After all, you 've got ten more inches to work with than a racegun does.

If you have to make Minor, get a new or heavy duty recoil spring, and see if you can get a shok buff for the bottom of the tube.  (I made one from neoprene, and it takes the jolt out of the recoil.)

In the handgun matches, depending on the course design, the PCC's sometimes post very impressive scores.  It isn't unusual for a decent B shooter with a PCC to smoke the time of an A or M using a racegun.

One of the guys in our club shoots his duty Sig 226, and doesn't have to worry about what ammo to bring to any match.  9mm+P and 12 ga heavy trap, and he's covered.

(Edited by Patrick Sweeney at 12:38 pm on Mar. 29, 2002)

[gm iprod]

I have a Ruger PC9. I use the same load in it and my pistol. 5.3gr WSF, in the handgun it does 1100fps or so. In the rifle it goes 1325fps. Which is just over 150PF. So with upping the load to the listed maximum of 5.7grs WSF I get just on 1450fps (166PF). The only problem is that the cases are expelled from the Ruger at about the speed of sound and usually are never seen again. This load is awesome on goats at about 50yds. A freind who has a PC9 and uses 135gr fmj and has got around the 1350fps mark easily (182PF). I also have a Ruger in 40 and 160pf is so easy to get in that it is not funny. I shoot 180gr at 1050fps and that is well over 180pf. Noise is low and recoil non existant.

The other advantage with the 40 is that we have no legal problems with supressors here and they further reduces recoil. Plus the local farmers love me.

[Patrick Sweeney]

If the Ruger is anything like the Marlin, the ejector is about five feet long.  One of our guys who was using a Marlin kept shortening the ejector until the brass at least stayed in the same zip code as the shooting box.  You might get a spare ejector and give it a try.

[gm iprod]

I've thought about that. But I think most of the problem lies with the bolt speed. I can get 9mm brass for free but I expect that to dry up soon. So I am hoping that a small deflector on the side will convince the brass that it needs to remain on planet earth.

In the mean time I will keep two outfielders in a job at the range.

[warpspeed]

gm iprod,

How is the PC9 & PC4 for accuracy?

[gm iprod]

I have only really checked the 9mm out on paper properly. Some loads with Ghost Ring sights will stay under 2" at 50M. I think that the shooter is the problem. . I mainly get between 3 and 4" at 50M with the 40. But I have not tried real hard with it as I usually use it on goats at about 50-80M. I have shot a 10" group at 200M with the .40S&W. But only once as the wind where I shoot is a little fickle and a slow moving lump like the .40 is badly affected at 200M. Oh by the way the drop was massive. You could also shoot three rounds at the gong (24") at 200 and the sound from the first will not have returned yet.

One guy I know is getting 2.5" at 100M with a 6x scope and 115gr JHP in his 9mm.

The 9mm is easier for swapping ammo about. The .40 must be loaded to 9mm OAL for best operation. If you run 1.25" loads in your handgun you will have problems with the Ruger, remeber the 40 was originally designed to fit a S&W 9mm sized handgun 1.15" OAL??. I load bang on 165PF for my pistols and either go like hell or load subsonic for the PC4. It all depends on what will be in front of me.

I believe that USA magazines still has a reasonable supply of nickel 30rnd preban 9mm Ruger pistol mags.

I bought as many as the Credit Card could swallow about 3 months ago. By the way the 40 does not work well with these big mags. My gunsmith say he can modify better if I am prepared to sacrifice one to the cause.

I really am beginning to hate the way the CA govt is thinking. We have different problems here. But they are totally nucking futs.

[Shooter Grrl]

I went and looked at rifles a couple of weekends ago - didn't get to fire them but honestly, the PC9 seemed MUCH easier to handle and operate compared to the Mini-14.  The Mini just felt "weird" too me :-)

[Carlos]

Well bit the bullet and traded an old M4 colt upper for a Colt 9mm upper (16 in barrel) with bolt.  The Argentine 40 round mags came in (look to be recently converted from something else - likely Uzi or similar subgun) Just need ASA's mag block and hammer (upper chokes on my AR hammers) and we'll get back with a range report.

I plan to try out that nickle plated stuff from Russia - Bear or something. Its a 145 grn 9mm bullet advertised at over 1200 FPS - though a friend testing it in an STI found it WELL BELOW 1200 from handguns.  It may just reach 1200fps from a carbine.

Am signed up for the unofficial 3 gun out at NRA next tuesday night - if the carbine is reliable, will fire first shots in the heat of competition.

D.

[warpspeed]

Kath,

The mini14 might feel wierd at first but the real problem is the mag changes.  it doesn't go in straight. not to mention the release is a little awkward being underneath.

Unless you live in The Peoples Republic of California stick with an AR.  Or so I'm told by those with far more expierence than me.

[warpspeed]

Carlos,

what is the twist on the barrel ?

[Carlos]

Good question - will check and get back to you after the S.Carolina sectional this weekend. Its a factory Colt 16" semi- preban upper if that is any help.   What will I need as far as twist to stabilize 145s? I have the 223 twist rates down - not sure about required twist rates in 9mm carbine.

BTW, looks like minor PF is only 160 - hopefully a broad range of factory ammo will work.

[Patrick Sweeney]

The twist rate on Colts is 1/10", way too fast but over-stabilised bullets seem to shoot just fine.  At 160PF, you only need the following:

115  1391 fps

125  1280 fps

147  1088 fps

Should be a piece of cake.

[warpspeed]

Patrick,

Does that mean that you would ideally like a lighter bullet?

How about 95gr ?

[midvalleyshooter]

I have shot my buddy Duane's  ruger pc40 and am impressed with its accuracy. He has a tasco pdp3 mounted on it. From a rest at 50 yards having 5 holes touching is not unusual.

Also a rifle not to over look is the M1 carbine. They are still legal in Califormia, make minor easily and the mags are easier to insert than a mini-14.

Keith

[warpspeed]

Good point midvalleyshooter but if I were to use a PC9 or PC4, I'm already set up to load. To switch to something like 30 carbine or even 223 would mean buying factory ammo.  Convienence, that's all.

[Patrick Sweeney]

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Quote: from warpspeed on 10:40 am on April 11, 2002

Patrick,

Does that mean that you would ideally like a lighter bullet?

How about 95gr ?

---

No.  The Colt twist (God only knows why they selected 1/10) is too fast to try and accomodate it by adjusting bullet weight.  If you're going to use a 9mm Carbine as a rifle in 3-gun you'll simply have to find a load that your carbine shoots well.  Mine is a police upper that was real high mileage before I got it.  With some loads it shoots 1" at 50 yards, and with other it won't stay in the A zone.

I'm currently feeding it Zero 125 gr fmj reloads, and it delivers them at 1235 fps.  It shoots them about 2-3" at 50 yards which is good enough for what we do.

When the barrel is finally fried I'm goign to plug a Shilen or Pac-Nor or something like it in, ream the chamber myself and turn it into a stealth pseudo sniper carbine.  I can clean up betting with the new shooters on dinking over our 100 yard plates with a "submachinegun."

I think if you try 95 grain bullets you'll find you can't load them long enough to get reliable feeding.  Mine hates short bullets.

[Shooter Grrl]

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Unless you live in The Peoples Republic of California stick with an AR.  Or so I'm told by those with far more expierence than me.

---

 Unfortunately, you'll find the fugly CA in my address ;-)  Very limited as to what we can get - has anyone shared an AR with 2 different uppers?  We're considering this as an option so I can have a lighter barrel and scope and David can still use his HBar and iron sight.  (OY! I tell him we should just move

[ErikW]

Yes switching uppers on an AR15 lower is a piece of cake. However, and these 9mm AR guys can correct me if I'm wrong, using a pistol-caliber carbine upper poses problems, like a magazine well block and different buffer spring setups. Going .223 to .223 or even 7.62x39 is a piece of cake. Just get a real front push-pin for your horsie brand gun so you don't have to deal with that stupid screw.

[John Thompson]

I shoot a Kel Tec sub 2000 9mm that cost $290- new a few months ago and love it.  Light, short, accurate enough, and cheap.  Talk about bang for the buck and the best part is it's not a Ruger.  I just use my production class ammo but I found that about a 135 pf(pistol) is needed for reliability.   Too bad that the Kalifornicators find this gun to be too vulgar due to the pistol grip.

[jhgtyre]

John,

What is the Kel-Tec's maximum usefull range?  I am trying to talk a buddy into some 3-gunning and an inexpensive rifle would be a big help.

Thanks,

-jhgtyre

[Patrick Sweeney]

On the twist issue;  by the Greenhill formula, a 1/10 twist in 9mm would call for a bullet around 1.9" long.  (Can you say "195 grain 9mm bullet?")  No point in even trying, just shoot what your gun likes.

Most conversins use magazines with integral adapters to fit AR lower mag well.

As for the Kel-Tec, I'd imagine the useful range is the same as any other 9mm, maybe 150 yards.

[John Thompson]

jhgtyre,

Maximum for the rifle according to Kel tec is 150yrds; however, I've found that practical range max is 100rds which is where the gun is factory sighted.  After 100yrds the bullets drop big time and the groups get really big.