Help with new PCC info

[bret]

9 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

I think you have missed the complexity of the situation, Bret.  The burden is on the RO to show a ruling for a DQ.  Not the other way around.  So, as you have thrown it out there several times now, what rule are you going to log for each of the DQs you have mentioned?  10.5.5 is specific to during a course of fire, not just walking around.  As a matter of fact, 10.5.5.1 makes it more complicated with specifically saying sweeping of lower extremities is not a DQ and the rules state holstered and handgun apply the same to PCC unless otherwise noted.

 

The best practices, though not rules, are in fact interpretations and given standards by the uspsa, so they are a part of decision making.  It's not that I disagree with you, but the conversation at hand was the problem is there is no rule to govern the sweeping as discussed.  While on the USPSA rules forum, where this has been and is being discussed A LOT, Troy is very clear in that a flagged PCC after having been properly removed from a case or cart, is then inert as to ones own lower extremities.  Sweeping still applies if the PCC becomes other than reasonably vertical or sweeps another person.  And as far as his opinions, I'm pretty sure if there isn't a rule for it, he's the one we are going to for interpretation until something formal is released, which he says is coming.  I don't like it either, but we don't get to tell someone they are DQed without a specific rule, where there simply isn't one for PCC in this particular area regarding the sling.  And if we are DQing people, we ought to be in line with the USPSA and their interpretations of the situations.  I want it to be there too, but it's not.  Not yet.

 

Lastly, the safety rules of the range always take priority and they can deem if the rules can safely be followed at their facility.  Hell, just look up the nationals and area matches that are specifying all rifles must be cased.  

In the Best Practices which is not a rule, Sweeping is not allowed with a flagged PCC.

Carbines can be transported in cases, on carts, held in the hands, or slung, as long as the muzzle is reasonably vertical (up or down), and a chamber flag is in place. A flagged carbine is treated the same as a holstered pistol, with the exception of sweeping rules.

[JAFO]

It seems like "safe" and "holstered" accomplish two different things.  Making a pistol safe at the end of a CoF ensures that it's empty and there is no magazine or round in the chamber.  Holstering the pistol denies access to the trigger while the gun is carried around the range outside of a CoF.  So sweeping anyone with a holstered pistol isn't considered a problem because the trigger on the (empty) gun cannot be accessed.

 

You can make a PCC safe at the end of a CoF the same as you do with a pistol.  The disconnect is with denying access to the trigger, since you can't holster a PCC.  If you don't have a case, you can carry a PCC around with the trigger exposed either in your hands (reasonably vertical) or on a cart.  The flag ensures the gun is empty, but was it intended to serve as a some sort of substitute for a holster?

 

If someone created snap-on kydex trigger guard covers for PCC's, would the sweeping be as much of an issue?

[bret]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

It seems like "safe" and "holstered" accomplish two different things.  Making a pistol safe at the end of a CoF ensures that it's empty and there is no magazine or round in the chamber.  Holstering the pistol denies access to the trigger while the gun is carried around the range outside of a CoF.  So sweeping anyone with a holstered pistol isn't considered a problem because the trigger on the (empty) gun cannot be accessed.

 

You can make a PCC safe at the end of a CoF the same as you do with a pistol.  The disconnect is with denying access to the trigger, since you can't holster a PCC.  If you don't have a case, you can carry a PCC around with the trigger exposed either in your hands (reasonably vertical) or on a cart.  The flag ensures the gun is empty, but was it intended to serve as a some sort of substitute for a holster?

 

If someone created snap-on kydex trigger guard covers for PCC's, would the sweeping be as much of an issue?

Yes sweeping is always a bad idea, I don't care if the trigger is covered or not.

 

 

[Hammer002]

On 9/8/2017 at 7:45 AM, bret said:

In the Best Practices which is not a rule, Sweeping is not allowed with a flagged PCC.

Carbines can be transported in cases, on carts, held in the hands, or slung, as long as the muzzle is reasonably vertical (up or down), and a chamber flag is in place. A flagged carbine is treated the same as a holstered pistol, with the exception of sweeping rules.

 

I can't imagine there are too many people who call themselves bret and spell it that way, so I assume you are the same as on the USPSA forums having been discussing this very issue where you would be well aware of Troy's ruling/interpretation.  If not, maybe check it out. 

 

Your opinions and, well, lets call it "assertiveness" are all well and good.  And I don't think you will find anyone that disagrees.  Although, in an attempt to remain ON TOPIC, cite the rule. Cite the rule we would DQ someone for PCC sweeping while slung, flagged, and still reasonably vertical.  10.5.5 doesn't work, that's only during a course of fire. PCC 10.5.2.1 is specific to casing and uncasing.  So help us out.

 

Make it easy, "Shooter disqualified due to violation of rule ___________."

Edited September 12, 2017 by Hammer002

[bret]

16 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

I can't imagine there are too many people who call themselves bret and spell it that way, so I assume you are the same as on the USPSA forums having been discussing this very issue where you would be well aware of Troy's ruling/interpretation.  If not, maybe check it out. 

 

Your opinions and, well, lets call it "assertiveness" are all well and good.  And I don't think you will find anyone that disagrees.  Although, in an attempt to remain ON TOPIC, cite the rule. Cite the rule we would DQ someone for PCC sweeping while slung, flagged, and still reasonably vertical.  10.5.5 doesn't work, that's only during a course of fire. PCC 10.5.2.1 is specific to casing and uncasing.  So help us out.

 

Make it easy, "Shooter disqualified due to violation of rule ___________."

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.

[Hammer002]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

So here is the entire rule.  Understand why you would only use part of it for the purpose of context. But the rule pertains to and is describing the act of casing and uncasing.  Even when flagged, if you sweep yourself while casing or uncasing while at the berm = DQ.  Now how about while slung...

[bret]

you sweep anyone anytime with any gun is uspsa you are supposed to get DQ'd.

there is limited exceptions for sweeping your lower extremities during holstering, drawing and re holstering your gun with a pistol.

What is so hard to understand?

Argue all you want but that is the way it is.

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

So here is the entire rule.  Understand why you would only use part of it for the purpose of context. But the rule pertains to and is describing the act of casing and uncasing.  Even when flagged, if you sweep yourself while casing or uncasing while at the berm = DQ.  Now how about while slung...

While I disagree with your take on this rule, I am so glad you posted the entire rule. It reminded me of a question I was going to ask months ago but forgot about. 

 So, you can't even turn a red dot on without RO supervision or while in a safe area?!? Really?!? I turn my Open gun dot off and on outside the course of fire all the time. Why would it be any different for a rifle?

[teros135]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

While I disagree with your take on this rule, I am so glad you posted the entire rule. It reminded me of a question I was going to ask months ago but forgot about. 

 So, you can't even turn a red dot on without RO supervision or while in a safe area?!? Really?!? I turn my Open gun dot off and on outside the course of fire all the time. Why would it be any different for a rifle?

 

I'm guessing it's because you don't "handle" the pistol while adjusting the dot - it's captured in the holster and is immobile (you can't wave it around), and the trigger is covered and unavailable. 

[bret]

12 minutes ago, Sarge said:

While I disagree with your take on this rule, I am so glad you posted the entire rule. It reminded me of a question I was going to ask months ago but forgot about. 

 So, you can't even turn a red dot on without RO supervision or while in a safe area?!? Really?!? I turn my Open gun dot off and on outside the course of fire all the time. Why would it be any different for a rifle?

I can turn the dot on for my Open gun while it is in the holster.

[teros135]

16 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

So here is the entire rule.  Understand why you would only use part of it for the purpose of context. But the rule pertains to and is describing the act of casing and uncasing.  Even when flagged, if you sweep yourself while casing or uncasing while at the berm = DQ.  Now how about while slung...

 

Since we're being very specific here, we should start with PCC 5.2.1, the rule set that covers how the PCC may be carried/handled.  5.2.1.5 outlines how PCCs are to be cased and uncased, so that's already covered. 

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 is in the Match DQ/Unsafe Gun Handling section of the rules that provides examples of unsafe gun handling, and it doesn't give any indication that it refers only to the act of casing/uncasing.  It includes DQ rules for (1) "failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing" or (2) "sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted" and (3) states that all other gun handling with the PCC must be done in a safety area or under RO supervision.  That doesn't need to be interpreted, just followed. 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

While I disagree with your take on this rule, I am so glad you posted the entire rule. It reminded me of a question I was going to ask months ago but forgot about. 

 So, you can't even turn a red dot on without RO supervision or while in a safe area?!? Really?!? I turn my Open gun dot off and on outside the course of fire all the time. Why would it be any different for a rifle?

 

4 hours ago, bret said:

you sweep anyone anytime with any gun is uspsa you are supposed to get DQ'd.

there is limited exceptions for sweeping your lower extremities during holstering, drawing and re holstering your gun with a pistol.

What is so hard to understand?

Argue all you want but that is the way it is.

 

3 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

Since we're being very specific here, we should start with PCC 5.2.1, the rule set that covers how the PCC may be carried/handled.  5.2.1.5 outlines how PCCs are to be cased and uncased, so that's already covered. 

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 is in the Match DQ/Unsafe Gun Handling section of the rules that provides examples of unsafe gun handling, and it doesn't give any indication that it refers only to the act of casing/uncasing.  It includes DQ rules for (1) "failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing" or (2) "sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted" and (3) states that all other gun handling with the PCC must be done in a safety area or under RO supervision.  That doesn't need to be interpreted, just followed. 

 

The irony is, I started this thread with the situation taking the same points of view, and made the same arguments you guys made here.  Of which I completely agree.  I was asked by one of the board members of the club to help explain the rule to the other members, who saw it differently.  One of the first responses to the thread was to go to the USPSA NROI forum, of which I did where there is LOTS of discussion regarding this very issue.  Because it actually is an issue.  The Director of the NROI, Troy McManus has been involved in these discussions and has weighed in on the issue.  The issue is there needs to be better rules written for the PCC, but they are ironing out what and how.  I am not making arguments against my own opinions of which I clearly presented in the original thread post, just relaying what Troy has said in the NROI forum.  He has made it clear there are different rules pertaining to the PCC as far as casing/uncasing, and then different rules that come into effect after safely uncased and then slung or carried.  All sweeping issues that are punishable by DQ, aside from not being held vertical, are part of the first (casing/uncasing) and there or none that address the latter (slung/carried).  Again, the irony is, I agree with every one of you, and likely every other sane person that shoots, but currently, there is no rule to DQ a guy walking around with a PCC sweeping himself as he walks that the USPSA/NROI will back you on.  In my particular scenario, I would still DQ the guy when he bent over to reset a popper and swept all of us behind him because that is a violation of being carried vertically.  Troy has simply said he hopes everyone will just use common sense until a rule clarification has been made.  I find it funny how modern forums work, that people don't even read and understand the conversation before jumping in nowadays and taking it off course.  So far so, that it has been made to look as if I am in favor against what I even started the thread for.  Correctly said, "argue all you want but that is the way it is," you just don't understand how it actually is and that we should all be pushing for a rule change.  Good talk.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Hammer002

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

 

The irony is, I started this thread with the situation taking the same points of view, and made the same arguments you guys made here.  Of which I completely agree.  I was asked by one of the board members of the club to help explain the rule to the other members, who saw it differently.  One of the first responses to the thread was to go to the USPSA NROI forum, of which I did where there is LOTS of discussion regarding this very issue.  Because it actually is an issue.  The Director of the NROI, Troy McManus has been involved in these discussions and has weighed in on the issue.  The issue is there needs to be better rules written for the PCC, but they are ironing out what and how.  I am not making arguments against my own opinions of which I clearly presented in the original thread post, just relaying what Troy has said in the NROI forum.  He has made it clear there are different rules pertaining to the PCC as far as casing/uncasing, and then different rules that come into effect after safely uncased and then slung or carried.  All sweeping issues that are punishable by DQ, aside from not being held vertical, are part of the first (casing/uncasing) and there or none that address the latter (slung/carried).  Again, the irony is, I agree with every one of you, and likely every other sane person that shoots, but currently, there is no rule to DQ a guy walking around with a PCC sweeping himself as he walks that the USPSA/NROI will back you on.  In my particular scenario, I would still DQ the guy when he bent over to reset a popper and swept all of us behind him because that is a violation of being carried vertically.  Troy has simply said he hopes everyone will just use common sense until a rule clarification has been made.  I find it funny how modern forums work, that people don't even read and understand the conversation before jumping in nowadays and taking it off course.  So far so, that it has been made to look as if I am in favor against what I even started the thread for.  Correctly said, "argue all you want but that is the way it is," you just don't understand how it actually is and that we should all be pushing for a rule change.  Good talk.

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

I'm guessing it's because you don't "handle" the pistol while adjusting the dot - it's captured in the holster and is immobile (you can't wave it around), and the trigger is covered and unavailable. 

Pretty sure a knob Could be turned or a button pushed without even touching any other part of the rifle.

  I guess this makes sense if the rifle is on a cart. Nobody wants to see you messing with the rifle at all then. But what about when you have uncased and are standing there waiting on targets to be scored? It seems you would already be handling the rifle. What harm could come from turning on the dot so things go faster once you make ready? 

  

[Hammer002]

26 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Pretty sure a knob Could be turned or a button pushed without even touching any other part of the rifle.

  I guess this makes sense if the rifle is on a cart. Nobody wants to see you messing with the rifle at all then. But what about when you have uncased and are standing there waiting on targets to be scored? It seems you would already be handling the rifle. What harm could come from turning on the dot so things go faster once you make ready? 

  

 

I was doing that until read this more thoroughly.  Just rotating the knob all the way while it was facing down. Think maybe they just don't want any touchy touchy at all so no confusion.  Dunno

[racerba]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

What harm could come from turning on the dot so things go faster once you make ready? 

  

How much slower would it be to turn on the dot at the line?  You will probably have to play with the dot intensity (on some sight) anyway...

Just play it safe and don't touch anything would be the most safe way to handle the rifle.

 

My input/opinion on the matter:

No one blinks an eye when a guy bends over and sweeps the crowd with his holstered handgun.  Why?  because, he is not "handling" it.  even though you are looking down the barrel of said handgun...

So then why would people be so upset looking down the barrel of a rifle that is slung with a flag on a guy's back when clearly, he is not "handling" it...and clearly, there is nothing in the chamber except for a plastic flag...
the DQ rules are specifically for unsafe gun "handling".  That's why we don't get upset when we are swept by a handgun that is in a case...or a rifle for that matter...no one is "handling" the firearm.  I see the point that the trigger is accessible, but there is a flag in the chamber...the handgun doesn't have a flag...yet we trust it...

[Hammer002]

10 hours ago, racerba said:

How much slower would it be to turn on the dot at the line?  You will probably have to play with the dot intensity (on some sight) anyway...

Just play it safe and don't touch anything would be the most safe way to handle the rifle.

 

My input/opinion on the matter:

No one blinks an eye when a guy bends over and sweeps the crowd with his holstered handgun.  Why?  because, he is not "handling" it.  even though you are looking down the barrel of said handgun...

So then why would people be so upset looking down the barrel of a rifle that is slung with a flag on a guy's back when clearly, he is not "handling" it...and clearly, there is nothing in the chamber except for a plastic flag...
the DQ rules are specifically for unsafe gun "handling".  That's why we don't get upset when we are swept by a handgun that is in a case...or a rifle for that matter...no one is "handling" the firearm.  I see the point that the trigger is accessible, but there is a flag in the chamber...the handgun doesn't have a flag...yet we trust it...

 

With respect, and I get your point, I disagree.  At no point should a gun in any way shape or form be pointed at another person unless destruction is the intent.  Doesn't matter if it's holstered, carried, slung, or even bagged.  If I have a gun torn down to parts the barrel NEVER points at me, another person, or any direction there could be another person.  While holstered, pointing at leg still weighs on my mind and is a heavily focused area of training for me.  I've seen the devastation of an AD into the leg while drawing/reholstering.  I understand your point that during competition, some things are just accepted as norm, but most all of what you mentioned still makes me cringe a little.  When I started PCC this year, my muzzle attention has been heightened greatly.  Even while bagged I make sure the muzzle is angled down.  That's just me though.  When some of the things you mentioned happen on the range, I find myself moving and staying away from them.  Comes from training I guess.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Hammer002

[racerba]

14 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

With respect, and I get your point, I disagree.  At no point should a gun in any way shape or form be pointed at another person unless destruction is the intent. 

I don't disagree with you...muzzle awareness is essential to gun handling and in our sport.  I don't condone muzzle being pointed at anything you are not willing to destroy.

When I do sling my rifle, I don't bend over so that my rifle is sweeping people...I will shift the rifle accordingly.  And with a holstered pistol, I will try to squat instead of bending over when I can.

If you are weighing the fact that a gun in the holster is pointing at your lower extremities, then you must not carry concealed.  It is not wrong for you to be concerned, and I can respect that.  

A barrel by itself while dissembled is nothing but a piece of pipe.  I don't have ogida about looking down the barrel in this situation...unless of course there's a round in the chamber and somebody is about to hit it with a hammer...

There are a certain level of acceptance I am willing to take.  Walking in front of the gun, after I cleared it for cleaning, while it is on the table, at home, when I needed to get up and get something is one example.  Not everybody or anybody will agree with me and I don't expect anyone to...to each his own.  

 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, racerba said:

 

If you are weighing the fact that a gun in the holster is pointing at your lower extremities, then you must not carry concealed. 

 

 

Lol.

[Mhall]

*stirring pot*

 

Bending down with a pistol in the holster usually does NOT point the gun anywhere other than down where it was while standing. Maybe a LITTLE further away from the owner, but not significantly. 

 

Going prone, not so much.