USPSA or MGA

[scottmilk9]

Which should oversee, rule over 3 gun matches?   USPSA or Multi Gun Association.  Would you guys become members of MGA if it took charge of the administrative stuff.  I am not sure if I agree with how uspsa is handling our three gun rules and not sanctioning matches that they dont see fit.  Just curious about this.

[Chriss Grube]

I think USPSA should run it. The matches that don't get sanctioned generally have some problems that could be resolved with minor changes. I read the article on the MGM match and it had some problems that could have been corrected but the MD didn't seem to care about getting it sanctioned. We don't need a splinter organization. Means all different rules. What equipment you use might be ok for one and not the other. USPSA is working out the problems. Give it a chance to settle things before we get to critical.

[actionshooter]

I would need to see more info on the MGA,I've never heard of it. Do you have a link?

Steve

[kellyn]

I believe Scott is referring to Dan Furbee's ideal of 3 gunning and his oversight of the Mystery Mountain 3 gun.  Should the MM3gun become the ideal of 3 gunning

?  To me, the MM3gun has been the best 3 gun match in the country.  I think that the MM3gun has consistently been a better match than the USPSA 3 gun Nationals (at least the ones I've been to) with more challenging and more fun stages and certainly better prizes.  And while I feel that Dan has done an EXCELLENT job of putting on a match, creating rules, gathering prizes, I still feel that USPSA is the better organization to be THE "3 gun organization."

USPSA is much larger and more established.  Much of the current leadership has great interest in 3 gunning (Voigt and Kempton in particular). USPSA is more "democratic" in that it has elections whereas the MGA is pretty much Dan's baby (nothing at all against Dan).  To his great credit, Dan really strides to include shooter input but that's a whole different thing than voter accountability. MGA would need a whole new structure. USPSA has greater resources.  USPSA has input from a much wider array of clubs, shooters, etc.  

USPSA has Front Sight.  

 

I think it would be much easier and more effective to work with Voigt and include the vast number of USPSA clubs and improve USPSA 3 gunning rather than create yet another shooting organization a la IDPA.   One of the things that I can't stand about IDPA is that it is a "benevolent" dictatorship where the few get to inflict their silly rules on the many and the many have no recourse whatsoever.  I feel that the MGA would be the same way.  Again, this is nothing against Dan or the MM3gun staff, it's just the nature of the beast.

[KyleL]

I definately agree with Kelly. Running a great three gun and running an organization are two different things. Mystery Mountain is a great match, but I believe with Voigt at the helm USPSA will eventually get squared away. With actual shooters taking over only good is bound to happen...

I also agree with Kelly on IDPA, too bad Bill is in charge, IDPA could be a great organization... didn't work for the Germans either........LOL

[kurtm]

A voice of decent is now requiered. Sorry Kelly and Kyle, but I must differ greatly with what you said...and I can; aint America great! To run 3-gun under U.S.P.S.A would generate matches just like the ones they already run. Gone would be semi suprize stages and suprize stages, a la S.O.F. or W.C.3-G. In would be the many rules and regs that simplly dont make sense for 3-gun, i.e. the constant unloading durring the middle of a stage,  which leads to considerable #s of d.q.s. Sort of like the problem Dan faces at MM3G. In would be 180 traps like this years nationls and the general glee some R.O.s take in assigning penalties. The concepts of shoot areas ( which are friendlier to NEW shooters ) and the use of cover A la S.O.F. would be gone!  Ask your selves if the Nationals were actually that fun to shoot. I know Dans match is, WC3G is and S.O.F. ran by the guys from Rocky Mountain 3 Gun was.

U.S.P.A. is more democratic to a point I guess. but in reading Front Sight as of late, one of the common themes has been the lack of growth and the general unfriendliness of the sport twards the new shooter. There seems to be squabling between the different factions of the leadership as to wich way to go and if your area does'nt have enough "vote " horse power you tend to loose. I feel to put U.S.P.S.A. in charge would spell the deth knell to 3 gun. Who honestly thinks an unlimited shotgun should be limited to 10 rounds?  Who honestly would like to see holsters that cant retain a pistol durring a true run and gun stage, or that cant reholster hot for a multigun stage? Or are we destin to have a rifle match, a pistol match, and a shot gun match as seperet entities and then somehow combine them at the end.

I think 3-gun should be splinter groups able to pick and choose what they seem to think works. If a person does'nt like a matches rules go to one of the othere ones. These matches should be fun and so far my contact with U.S.P.S.A has been anything but. This is not a slam at Mike or U.S.P.S.A. but in my region it is not run with the new shooter in mind, nor with reguard to growing the sport of pistol let alone three gun. We had to start our own club to 3 gun because the powers that be though 3 gun was simply to dangerous for any but the elite few to participate in. and as I pointed out these guys vote in U.S.P.S.A elections too. I am not triing to flame or defame any body or organization, I just wanted to point out some of the views a few of us have, I am not alone.                                   Kurt

[BSeevers]

I don't shoot IDPA because Bill Wilson doesn't make a bull barrel or someone in it thinks they are SO un-tactical and my gun has one. Please, if a 1911 .45 is "tactical" then a bull barrel on one is too.

I would hate to see 3 gun become like IDPA.  I shoot and support all shooting sports. Within reason. I am not buying another $2500 gun and holster to shoot 1 match a month. I would probably shoot IDPA if silly rules like that didn't exist. I hope 3 gun doesn't go off like that.

I have been around for a while(other sports too) and have seen people create their own game when they couldn't win the current one. I am not saying anyone is doing that here just an observation of experience, of something to be on lookout for.

USPSA 3 gun is fun. Few clubs shoot it because of RO help and low participation. I like it. Its like a new infant but could grow up fine with support and leadership.

[kellyn]

Kurt, I absolutely agree that the best 3 gun matches are not run under the USPSA banner. To me, the MM3gun and Kyle's 3 gun tactical are the best matches I've ever been to - of any kind.  (Sorry, I don't care for the WC3gun approach: mean ROs, silly optical rules, and the longest most brutal shooter's meeting ever.) There is something to be said for the current disorganization where different groups run different matches in different ways.  It leads to creativity and diversity.  It also leads to widely differing rules where people need to organize different equipment for each and every match.  The ultimate equipment for Kyle's match is not the ultimate equipment for the 3 gun nationals which is not the ultimate equipment for SOF.  Now that I have all the stuff, it's great but for a new 3 gunner the task is daunting.

Kurt, I'm not sure that we really disagree. I enjoy the variety of matches that we have.  I was responding to Scott's question though.  I would rather work in the already existing framework of USPSA to improve 3 gunning rather than create a whole new organization.

The MGA rules used at MM3gun have a lot to be said for them.  There are problems though:

- Few really like the scoring system although it's easy to utilize (strict time, targets require 1 A or 2 hits to neutralize).  

-The optical rules follow the utterly silly WC3gun system of sacred "military-approved" scopes.  

-MM3gun has no max for shotgun tubes.  I favor the USPSA 10 round limit on open shotguns. That way everybody can play.  Not everyone has a 15 round tube like Jake and Jim Clark.

- There is no distinction for major/minor.  

Of course, USPSA rules aren't perfect either.

[kurtm]

HEY KELLY I THINK WE AGREE ON SOME OF THIS !!

Only one mean R.O.

4 surly R.O.s

The rest are okay and Johny and Cathy are great!

Actually I like them all. But I always have been a bit...OFF.

I'm still out on the optic question. I would use a TA-11 on an open rifle. For me nothing else need apply...however any optic should put one into open, and I guess then any optic would be leagl. S.O.F.s rule came from the fact R.K.B. wanted a military type match. His original idea was current mil and vets to see who was top dog. Then it morphed into police too, and then into all come... Now, well we'll see, at least they now allow comps.

The longest shoters meeting... you bet!  Come sit in back with us and drink more beer, I dont think this is going to change.

Gear wise... up untill 3 years ago my stock M-14, Stock 121-M1 Benelli, and stock G-22was good to go, and still is, in any and all of the matches you mentioned, so I think the gear debate is sensless. Go with the most restrictive match rules and your good for any other match out there.

I kind of liked the way the last true S.O.F. wasw scored

1 A or two Cs for minor

1 A or a C ,D for major

actually Dan's system aint bad... we sure can shoot alot faster there and aint that fun?

Yes I also dont think 3-gun should be run under any one banner, but if we are forced in that direction all I can say is there are still lots of Prairie Dogs to go shoot where I live and thats all I have to say about that.!!!

Just to be clear I now shoot a J.P. Enterprizes AR, The ugliest camo M1 Field Benelli with one of my own extentions and other goodies I make, and a S.T.I. in .40 and I use all S.O.F.  legal holders, holster and gear. With this gear I placed second over all in open, in last years Rocky Mountain 3-gun ass. Matches. # 1 was my brother Eric using similar gear. Lets drop the gear debate and go shoot.                           KURT

[kellyn]

We completely agree, you've always been a bit off!  Of course it's true that the shooter is what wins - TGO beats EVERYONE here with his L10 gun.  But gear is important too and I wish there was somewhat more consistency betwen the organizations.  I guess I'll never get over the fact that my limited AR was too heavy for SOF one year and I had to borrow a gun. I'm also pissed that my new FAL is too heavy with an ACOG so for that ONE match I have to figure out how to lose some weight.

FYI the coolest ROs ever are at Kyle's match.  They've got the right perspective.  Can they be cloned and issued to every match?

If I ever go to WC3 gun again, I will sit in the back with you and drink beer but I can drink a lot of beer in the inifinity that their shooter's meeting takes.

[KyleL]

Kurt,

I believe the bottom line is we all just want to shoot.... I believe the rules I use for my match are the best... hehehehehe The only problem with my match is I am in charge. I make the decisions, and I write the rules. Well actually I have them in my head and I tend to be a little Skitso.... We have tried to apply common sense. For example only one scope on your rifle, no ported shotguns and .5 seconds added for each point down, and we use USPSA tgts. Kurt go to my site for some of the rules. http://www.VIKINGTACTICS.com

Kelly as far as the Cloned RO's go......... I don't know if you can afford their beer and Copenhagen bills. The RO's I use are shooters first and RO's second. We have had problems like everyone but I try to keep them in line. Especially that fella from Texas...(Greg)

I believe our match will continue to grow. Good stages, 24 guns on the prize table, and great RO's. Oh and free food and shirt..

We also like to make most of our stages combo stages...

And just so you all can rest easy I have several heavies waiting to Clobber me if I start getting stupid with the rules and stages... (like IDPA) Hope that doesn't happen........

KyleL

[kurtm]

Hey Kelly:

I do agree with every thing you just wrote. I do forget that just because my gear makes weight not all gear does. Eric shot a stock H&K 93 one year and it made weight only without the sling. He ended up almost using a piece of 550 cord for a sling to meet the rules. GOOD POINT!!! When I think gear I'm thinking holders, holsters,e.t.c.  You are right in this reguard!!

On a lighter note... the best way to lose a little weight for WC3G is to drink less beer and run more, but then that shooters meeting destroys the WHOLE program, and darned if I can get my rifle to run without me. Guess it is time to unify a LITTLE of this. With that said  I still dont feel it should be U.S.P.S.A, but who knows, you kind of convinced me on the weight deal.    KURT

[kurtm]

Kyle:

We are on the same side of the pond, throwing rocks the same way. I am well versed with your rules. All of them are practical and well thought out. As for one guy in charge with the sole say ( no democracy here), I feel thats the only way to go. It's how we ran the last S.O.F. ( no offence to all the guys we shoot with at R.M.3G and helped us put on the match, but the final say was my brothers). No comps on shotguns? only one optic or no optic? Right on!!!!  Time added? best way to score a match, speed is fine accuracy is final. Kind of like old S.O.F. back in 95 when I first met you. The only problem with your match is that it has been when I am usually out of the contry or in the field, but two of my WC3G team mates, Todd and Blane, let me live vicariously through them.

On a darker note... I heared that your match was closing down due to your impending tranfer to FT. Lewis. If this is'nt so please let the rest of us know, or post it here. I would'nt like to see you have to follow U.S.P.S.A. rules in order to get along, thats why I say no to one controlling entitie for 3-gun.   KURT

(Edited by kurtm at 4:52 pm on July 16, 2002)

[KyleL]

Kurt, It is true that I am now at Ft Lewis, but I believe the match will continue. It may actually be held twice a year. Once as the West coast North Carolina Tactical three gun and then as itself in NC. I still haven't found any ranges out here, but have been spending more time flyfishing than shooting. Keep checking my web site..

One last thing ----If you want to gain respect in the 3 Gun world, You just can't hang around with guys like Todd, Blane, and Jimmy..... LOL   ADIOS KyleL

[kurtm]

Kyle:

Respect is earned, not gained. Unfortunatly it spend faster than you earn it and these guys are EXPENSIVE!! Have fun in that great Washington sun and I'll let the guys here know it's still a go.                    KURT

[kellyn]

Actually Kyle the more I think about it, we should elect you "LORD OF THE 3 GUN" just for the pig pull/BBQ dinners.  My wife is still raving about that!  The hell with equipment rules, I think that every 3 gun match should be accompanied by a pig pull.

Kurt, I tell my FAL to run a few miles but it just sits there and blankly stares at me.  To bad, SOF does not weigh the shooter/rifle system, of course then a lot of shooters would get DQ'd.  If that was the standard, Jimmy could use a Barrett .50!

In all seriousness, there is definitely a split/rift/difference/chasm between 3 gun shooters.  Many prefer "tactical" oriented matches such as Kyle's or SOF while others prefer open class. It's funny, there are people that will shoot SOF/WC3gun but would not be caught dead at the 3 gun Nationals while others would not be caught dead at SOF.  Some, like me, prefer to slip between the two. The only match that really accomodates both is the MM3gun, but they don't have a pig pull.  The more I think about it the more I like the idea of diverse matches.  

[John Thompson]

I'd be happy just to get to shoot a three gun match once in awhile.